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New I'll remove my tongue from my cheek and respond.
I'll answer your direct question, but I want to (again and hopefully for the last time) refute yet another misrepresentation of my position. Specifically, you write:
Today we also see the collapse of the former consensus against legally-sanctioned homosexual partnerships, a development regarding which you have lamented at some length.
I have absolutely not "lamented" legally sanctioned homosexual partnerships. Nor have I ever held that such partnerships should not afford all rights, responsibilities and entitlements that marriages provide. The only thing I have lamented is the use of the same noun to describe two different relationships. My great friend of the last 35 years also strongly encouraged me to change my position on that topic, but even he, in the end, agreed that a homosexual relationship and a heterosexual relationship are not the same relationship. I then asked him why he wanted to use the same noun to describe the two distinct relationships and he said, in essence, that if we didn't, some people would see one as inferior to the other (Aside: he's known me personally long enough to know that I was not in this imagined group). I still think it's stupid to use the same noun for two different things but that in no way should be taken to mean that I believe that homosexual relationships should have any lessened rights and/or privileges vis-a-vis marriage. I know I've said "with the possible exception of adoption" because, well, I think the jury's out on if and/or how being raised in a same-sex household would impact kids. Of course, the next generation is screwed anyway. I recently discovered that more children will live through their family's bankruptcies than will live through their parents' divorce. But I digress.

I believe the Loving decision correct but have always been troubled by the hyperbole with respect to the institution of marriage in the decision. Warren wrote, "Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man', fundamental to our very existence and survival" but the cited opinion said (emphasis mine), "Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race." Warren appears to be making the presumption that marriage implicitly implied procreation (interestingly, I took some heat for making the same presumption). But I disagree with his interpretation of Douglas in Skinner. I read Skinner as saying reproduction is a fundamental right. The fact that most often occurs as a consequence of marriage is why marriage was even mentioned. I do not believe that marriage in and of itself can ever rightly be considered a civil right. I'd be open to the idea that procreation in and of itself is a civil right, but marriage on its own? I find the idea ludicrous.
New Marriage: my solution on record
Probably here somewhere; if not, elsewhere.

We abolish "marriage." Instead, going forward, it's "New Marriage" and "Marriage Classic." The former takes in all the stuff that makes the traditionalists squeamish, and the latter the elements your grandparents would feel comfortable with. With luck we get to the point where your social heirs of 2060 will growl "I don't care what they do as long as they don't call it 'Marriage Classic.'"

cordially,
New See only one flaw in this self-evidently sane solution:
it's too fucking-sensible!

A common conundrum here, of course--but in this case, n-thousands have framed their entire strategy around intransigence, and (I merely suppose)
some legions are in this in order to Win-over-them, not merely be pronounced "Right"-er. Or {shudder} "Equals".

On the ballot, I'd bet this would win in many States.. even U.S. ones; maybe enough?
(We should not here discuss "Diet Marriage", to complete the flavorful panache.)
New Meh.
Seriously. :-)

The only thing I have lamented is the use of the same noun to describe two different relationships. My great friend of the last 35 years also strongly encouraged me to change my position on that topic, but even he, in the end, agreed that a homosexual relationship and a heterosexual relationship are not the same relationship. I then asked him why he wanted to use the same noun to describe the two distinct relationships and he said, in essence, that if we didn't, some people would see one as inferior to the other (Aside: he's known me personally long enough to know that I was not in this imagined group). I still think it's stupid to use the same noun for two different things but that in no way should be taken to mean that I believe that homosexual relationships should have any lessened rights and/or privileges vis-a-vis marriage.


We've been through how marriage has changed over the centuries before, so I won't belabor the point, but I do want to push-back again.

For instance - http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/5809/how-are-concubines-different-than-wives

In Genesis, a union between man and woman is described as just a commitment that two people make to live together, help each other, "be fruitful and multiply." Isaac brought Rebecca "into his tent," and she became his wife, so in their case, marriage is initiated between a couple when they engage in sex. Afterwards, they are understood as being bound to each other, and thus living in a marriage. This is understandable, since biblical times had a very different view of sex than what we see in modern society.

This is why I ask about the difference between what a wife is and what a concubine is in biblical times. Since a marriage ceremony is never described in the Bible, what qualities would make a concubine different than a wife?

Those are two different labels, so is it just suggesting a social status difference? A handmaid, even if she took up permanent residence with one man, would never be a "wife", only a "concubine"?

Bilhah and Zilphah are described as Jacob's "concubines", and Rachel and Leah are described as "wives", although the children from all four women are equal since they all become the twelve tribes. So why not call Rachel and Leah's handmaids wives?


That's just one example.

Treating the word "marriage" as some inviolable term that 'everybody knows' and has a universally-agreed meaning is where you go off the rails. Either everybody's marriage, whether they were 18 and school sweethearts, or 75 and met at Atlantic City on a wild weekend, or have 19 kids, or are sterile (voluntarily or not), or marry once, or marry 6 times (sequentially, not concurrenly ;-), they all need to be treated equally. Otherwise, it creates "separate but equal" and nothing in that type of arrangement is ever equal.

"Equal but" is not Equal.

Societies change. Words change. That's a good, but sometimes annoying, thing. Because "Stasis = Death".

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New double down on your meh :-)
you notice that it is men who own the term marriage? Zilpha might heartily object to the term concubine, she may have preferred the term favored wife
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New s/separate but equal/different but equal/. FIFY. ;0)
New Never fly...
Separate but Equal not Different but Equal are ever going to work no matter the subject.

Since I can't read drivel (or not drivel... I don't know) from the parent post.
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
"No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." --Stanislaw Jerzy Lec
New It seems that your post has wakened a sleeping-LRPD
I fell in love with my manservant, who was
actually the disguised twin sister of the
man that my former love secretly married,
having mistaken him for my manservant who
was wooing her on my behalf whilst secretly
in love with me.


ie. In a zeitgeist of n+1 genders (some in transition) ... maybe merely [ ONE!!!!! Marriage-title ] is approaching its sell-by date?
And I've always wondered if Gawd has a belly-button: a significant datum if one is positing Tribes-of-Gawds,
maybe as occasionally befuddled, individually? as is our Homo-Shoot-in-Foot species.

(Let alone: is He a She? or Both?? and.. what about Mrs. G.??) If that belly-button means what it means.

I so confused.
     "House Votes to End Medical Pot Prosecutions" - (rcareaga) - (10)
         Well, I'll be. You've become a "State's Rights" supporter. - (mmoffitt) - (9)
             I reply seriously - (rcareaga) - (8)
                 I'll remove my tongue from my cheek and respond. - (mmoffitt) - (7)
                     Marriage: my solution on record - (rcareaga) - (1)
                         See only one flaw in this self-evidently sane solution: - (Ashton)
                     Meh. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                         double down on your meh :-) - (boxley)
                         s/separate but equal/different but equal/. FIFY. ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                             Never fly... - (folkert) - (1)
                                 It seems that your post has wakened a sleeping-LRPD - (Ashton)

The Idler of Champions.
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