A few things...

1) The US divorce rate has never been 50% and has been falling since ~ 1980 - http://www.nytimes.c.../19divo.html?_r=0 Interestingly, divorce rates fall dramatically with increased education. Since education levels continue to increase over time, divorce rates are likely to keep falling.

2) You're posting a whole bunch of binary choices. People get married and divorced for lots of reasons - not simply lack of "commitment". My dad knew a couple that lived together for 15 years (and had kids IIRC) and then got married. Why? Health insurance. Similarly, sometimes there are sensible financial or reasons other than "commitment" why people get divorced. E.g. People often change after a few decades and want to do other things with their lives. People who make those choices aren't somehow, (probably the wrong words here) morally defective.

3) Just because you don't understand why people would make other choices doesn't mean that their choices aren't legitimate. People are different and have the right to make choices that are sensible for them. If someone wants to be married, and they don't want kids, and they end up getting divorced 20 years later, they aren't somehow worse people than people who don't marry, do have kids, and stay together for the rest of their lives. You can't determine anything about commitment from the two cases - you can have a cowed spouse and a wife-beater in either case. You don't know. They've simply made different choices about marriage.

4) Having some paper that says you've got Durable Power of Attorney and so forth for your family member is supposed to be legally sufficient in many cases, but in practice it isn't always. And even in cases when it is, it's a hassle in terms of time and money. (Personal experience here with J's parents.) If "marriage" means something different for hetero couples than for gay couples, then "civil commitment" isn't good enough. Separate but equal isn't. We've got lots of history showing that to be a fact.

Society should let people make their own choices and not say they can't. Treating people equally is just and more efficient.

What I agreed with most about Hugh's post was:

My point is that two people in love who publicly and ostensibly permanently define their relationship, should have exactly equal rights and liabilities with respect to family identity, property, and tax laws.

When are you going to finally accept the brilliance of my arguments?!?! ;-)

Cheers,
Scott.

We aren't even arguing the same issue. ;0)

To your quoted point, I'm not arguing that such should not be the case. I'm arguing with you (if at all) about whether or not "marriage" should be the sole method of achieving that equality. I don't think it should, but as Ashton pointed out, it might have to be given the current "real world" situation.

I don't think people who divorce are defective, bad or morally inferior in the least. I do think it's pretty clear their choice to marry was ill advised assuming the traditional until death do you part.

If marriage is evolving (or has evolved) to mean "a temporary living arrangement carrying some legal benefits" then IMO marriage has outlived its usefulness, not withstanding the fact that it never really lived up to its stated ideal for everyone who entered into it. I don't think it is fair to the legions of single mothers out there (or cohabitating gay couples for that matter) to define "family" solely through wedlock, so I reject the notion that only through wedlock can a family truely be said to exist or be accepted as such by society. I concede I might be outside the "real world" again in that sentiment.

Cheers,
Mikem

Oh, and thanks for the nitpick about 50 percent. 41 percent then, or whatever it is. ;0)

Post #388,453 by Another Scott 4/11/14 10:17:48 AM Reply	A few things... 1) The US divorce rate has never been 50% and has been falling since ~ 1980 - http://www.nytimes.c.../19divo.html?_r=0 Interestingly, divorce rates fall dramatically with increased education. Since education levels continue to increase over time, divorce rates are likely to keep falling. 2) You're posting a whole bunch of binary choices. People get married and divorced for lots of reasons - not simply lack of "commitment". My dad knew a couple that lived together for 15 years (and had kids IIRC) and then got married. Why? Health insurance. Similarly, sometimes there are sensible financial or reasons other than "commitment" why people get divorced. E.g. People often change after a few decades and want to do other things with their lives. People who make those choices aren't somehow, (probably the wrong words here) morally defective. 3) Just because you don't understand why people would make other choices doesn't mean that their choices aren't legitimate. People are different and have the right to make choices that are sensible for them. If someone wants to be married, and they don't want kids, and they end up getting divorced 20 years later, they aren't somehow worse people than people who don't marry, do have kids, and stay together for the rest of their lives. You can't determine anything about commitment from the two cases - you can have a cowed spouse and a wife-beater in either case. You don't know. They've simply made different choices about marriage. 4) Having some paper that says you've got Durable Power of Attorney and so forth for your family member is supposed to be legally sufficient in many cases, but in practice it isn't always. And even in cases when it is, it's a hassle in terms of time and money. (Personal experience here with J's parents.) If "marriage" means something different for hetero couples than for gay couples, then "civil commitment" isn't good enough. Separate but equal isn't. We've got lots of history showing that to be a fact. Society should let people make their own choices and not say they can't. Treating people equally is just and more efficient. What I agreed with most about Hugh's post was: My point is that two people in love who publicly and ostensibly permanently define their relationship, should have exactly equal rights and liabilities with respect to family identity, property, and tax laws. When are you going to finally accept the brilliance of my arguments?!?! ;-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #388,470 by mmoffitt 4/11/14 12:55:23 PM Reply	How can we agree? We aren't even arguing the same issue. ;0) To your quoted point, I'm not arguing that such should not be the case. I'm arguing with you (if at all) about whether or not "marriage" should be the sole method of achieving that equality. I don't think it should, but as Ashton pointed out, it might have to be given the current "real world" situation. I don't think people who divorce are defective, bad or morally inferior in the least. I do think it's pretty clear their choice to marry was ill advised assuming the traditional until death do you part. If marriage is evolving (or has evolved) to mean "a temporary living arrangement carrying some legal benefits" then IMO marriage has outlived its usefulness, not withstanding the fact that it never really lived up to its stated ideal for everyone who entered into it. I don't think it is fair to the legions of single mothers out there (or cohabitating gay couples for that matter) to define "family" solely through wedlock, so I reject the notion that only through wedlock can a family truely be said to exist or be accepted as such by society. I concede I might be outside the "real world" again in that sentiment. Cheers, Mikem Oh, and thanks for the nitpick about 50 percent. 41 percent then, or whatever it is. ;0)
Post #388,474 by folkert 4/11/14 1:03:37 PM Reply	That nitpick is 34,200,00 HTH. -- greg@gregfolkert.net "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." --Stanislaw Jerzy Lec
Post #388,479 by Another Scott 4/11/14 2:57:10 PM Reply	The nits, they must be picked!
Post #388,512 by mmoffitt 4/12/14 8:43:09 PM Reply	Math is not your strong suit is it? But, no matter. ;0)

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