clear, levelheaded understanding of the issues

Post #387,285 by boxley 3/6/14 3:54:02 PM Reply	clear, levelheaded understanding of the issues http://www.washingto...1760b9_story.html Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #387,291 by Another Scott 3/6/14 5:07:32 PM Reply	Thanks, but meh. 90% of that is cold-war framing. I haven't seen anyone sensible saying Ukraine should join NATO now. I didn't see much mention of the previous government looting Ukraine and making it an economic basket case. Nobody forced Viktor Yanukovych to negotiate a deal with the EU and then refuse to sign it. Nobody forced Viktor Yanukovych to bring in Russian snipers to gun down protesters while he was negotiating. Yes, the history between Ukraine and Russia is deep and rich and complicated. That doesn't mean that both sides have equally valid interests and positions. I don't expect a shooting war between NATO and Russia over Ukraine. But I do expect significant tensions and painful sanctions to be put in place if Putin doesn't back down. I don't have any special knowledge though... Cheers, Scott.
Post #387,292 by boxley 3/6/14 5:19:47 PM Reply	what you have there is Kurds and Arabs for an anology Saying that the Russian folks of the Ukraine do not have an equal say in what Kiev is doing is part of the problem. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #387,296 by Another Scott 3/6/14 7:14:02 PM Reply	It's the Russians who are refusing to talk at the moment.
Post #387,297 by boxley 3/6/14 8:06:14 PM Reply	hardly, an agreement was reached and signed by the parties then breached by pro-western forces immediately who had no desire to talk and declared themselves the winner take allez. Now the Russians are doing the same Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #387,298 by Another Scott 3/6/14 8:35:05 PM Reply	Meh. I'm talking about now. Putin is refusing to meet with the Ukrainian government now. http://en.wikipedia....ine_of_the_events is a good timeline of events in mid-February. Impeachment[edit] On 21 February President Yanukovych and the Parliament declared 22 and 23 February to be new days of mourning "Due to the loss of human life as a result of mass disturbances".[211] On Maidan, Klitschko announced that he and the opposition would be soon voting on the impeachment of Viktor Yanukovych in parliament, the bill of which was registered in the previous session.[176] In Parliament, Speaker Volodymyr Rybak submitted his resignation, citing alleged illness.[212] Yanukovych's whereabouts were unknown despite media reports he had flown to Kharkiv. Oleksandr Turchynov stated that in fact most of the ministers had disappeared as well as Interior Minister Vitaly Zakharchenko (who is reported to have fled to Belarus[213]) and President Viktor Yanukovych, "The only one legitimate body left is the Verkhovna Rada Â so we are here to vote today. The major tasks for today are: to vote for the new speaker, prime minister and interior minister."[176] In the Verkhovna Rada, deputies voted with 328 in favour and none against for impeaching Yanukovych.[42] Oleksandr Turchynov was then voted by parliament Chairman of the Ukrainian Parliament and acting President and Prime Minister of Ukraine.[214][215][216] Turchynov claimed Viktor Yanukovych had agreed to resign as president, but after consulting with advisers, he disavowed the decision and even a pre-recorded resignation statement.[176] Arguments can be made that the post-revolutionary government in Kyiv is illegal. I don't buy them, myself. Similarly, I don't buy that Russia or Russia-speakers in Ukraine are suddenly threatened by Yanukovych leaving the country before he was arrested. Or something. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #387,300 by boxley 3/6/14 9:18:40 PM Reply	see you a Meh and raise you a feh :-) not trying to state that the current government or rabble in charge is not legitimate. Just that this stuff has been around for a while http://www.bbc.com/n...d-europe-15250742 "It is dangerous and counterproductive to cast the entire package of agreements into doubt," Mr Putin was quoted as saying by Reuters news agency. Russia's foreign ministry had earlier said the ruling had a "clear anti-Russian subtext". Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #387,304 by Another Scott 3/6/14 9:49:13 PM Reply	Yup. The former leaders seemed to have been playing both sides for a while. The people in the square seem to have finally gotten tired of it. Cheers, Scott.
Post #387,306 by boxley 3/6/14 10:13:54 PM Reply	the other people in the other square, likewise that appears to be the issue here. Kiev is not Simferapol, and the people in the latter city do not wish to pull their forelocks in Kiev's direction any longer. Or do they have no rights except those dictated by Kiev? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #387,307 by Another Scott 3/6/14 10:22:32 PM 3/6/14 10:56:58 PM Reply	Dunno. It's mysterious, though, that the demand to be part of Russia only blew up after Russia invaded... The way out of this is to get everyone together and to talk about it. Demands for splitting up the country isn't a sensible solution. (E.g. water and [power] for Crimea apparently comes from the mainland.) Cheers, Scott. Edited by Another Scott March 6, 2014, 10:56:58 PM EST Expand All History
Post #387,308 by boxley 3/6/14 10:30:26 PM 3/6/14 10:31:29 PM Reply	well it is a legitimately elected government there no overthrows needed. They had almost true autonomy before the crisis and feel that their needs would be better met by Moscow than Kiev, with the economic uncertainty and draconian monetary policy that will be imposed by the west it may be the best move. Nit Russia did not invade, they were already there Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep Edited by boxley March 6, 2014, 10:31:29 PM EST Expand All History
Post #387,313 by Another Scott 3/6/14 11:03:01 PM Reply	According to the agreement, Russian troops were limited. http://www.kyivpost....ating-338358.html Germany has troops at Dulles Airport - http://wikimapia.org...ces-Command-US-CA That doesn't mean they can surround Fort Meade. ;-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #387,314 by a6l6e6x 3/6/14 11:05:24 PM Reply	Re:Nit Russia did not invade Bullshit! Per BBC: http://www.bbc.com/n...d-europe-26415508 Under the terms of its agreement with Ukraine, Russia is entitled to have 25,000 troops on the peninsula and currently has an estimated 16,000 deployed there. But these troops have to remain on base. Pro-Russian troops have been deployed across Crimea. Moscow insists they are local self-defence forces, but there are widespread reports that they are from Russia. And that's a Navy base! The fact that the uniforms of the armed goons running around Crimea have no insignia is an admission they are in violation and know it. Some admit to being Russian soldiers. My Viking River cruise ship in July of 2012 stayed in the Sevastopol Russian Navy base. My primary tour guide was Russian lady who was an English instructor to Russian officers (and on maternity leave). Her husband was a Russian officer (along with the baby) we briefly met. There were not that many people there and the ones I saw were sailors. Alex ÂThere is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.Â -- Isaac Asimov
Post #387,315 by boxley 3/6/14 11:14:44 PM Reply	you have to take last centuries turmoil into consideration Stalin Killed millions of Ukrainians during the 20 to collectivize their lands. As a consequence many folks rejoiced when the germans invaded and supported them wholeheartedly. The facists returned the favor to the Russians in the crimea and elsewhere. The great patriotic war swung the balance the other way again. The Russ of the crimea and east have long memories. The Ukrainians of the west have long memories as well. It is not as cut and dried as the Administration would like to make it. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #387,293 by a6l6e6x 3/6/14 5:56:15 PM Reply	Oversimplification. For example he says Ukraine has been foreign controlled since the 14th century. A single counterexample makes the statement false. For example, in the 20th century at the end of WW-I, before the USSR formed, at least for a while there was an independent Ukraine in at least a part of the territory that is now Ukraine. There was a government, they issued currency, etc. See here: https://en.wikipedia...r_of_Independence The Bolsheviks prevailed to be sure. Another example is this shown in this "The Zaporozhye Cossacks Replying to the Sultan" painting of an 1675 (i.e. 17th century) event: https://en.wikipedia...sch_Repin_009.jpg Granted the painting was created 2 centuries later by a Russian of all things. The Cossacks were responding to the Sultan of the Ottoman empire. The amusing exchange of words is here: https://en.wikipedia...orozhian_Cossacks The Cossacks were in charge of the Southern part of Ukraine. That's why the Sultan addressed them. The Cossacks didn't make a deal with Russia until a century deal. Alex ÂThere is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.Â -- Isaac Asimov
Post #387,295 by boxley 3/6/14 7:04:32 PM Reply	te Zaporozhye Cossacks prefer? hint they used to sack poland Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #387,317 by Andrew Grygus 3/7/14 12:48:35 AM 3/7/14 12:51:14 AM Reply	Bull. The Cossacks fought the Poles in Ukraine, but never sacked Poland. The only major sacking of Poland before the Nazis was the Swedes, during the short lived Swedish Empire - which met its Waterloo in Ukraine. The Swedes invaded Poland and Lithuania, and stole every bit of the art, cultural artifacts intellectual property and wealth of those countries, and shipped it all to Sweden. Anything they could not loot, the burned or otherwise destroyed, including castles, churches, villages and cities. They also caused the death of nearly half the population. They did far more looting and destroying than the Nazis during WWII. Sweden remains a criminal country, because they are bound by signed treaty to return what they looted, but to this day refuse to return anything. "Aw, gee, we just don't know where any of that stuff is." Bullshit. I consider the purchase of a Volvo complicity in this criminality. Edited by Andrew Grygus March 7, 2014, 12:51:14 AM EST Expand All History
Post #387,318 by boxley 3/7/14 1:42:55 AM Reply	sorry my historical references are impeccable :-) big fan of tony curtis http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056556/ Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep

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