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Post #386,850 by malraux 2/25/14 12:22:40 PM Reply	Try again. As concerns your American Indian question, suppose you own a bakery and they want a cake depicting Custer's slaughter at the Little Big Horn which they need for a celebration of Custer's death. The bakery in question didn't bother to find out what was on the cake before refusing service. I don't buy that businesses providing materials are participating in the ceremony, either. There is a qualitative difference between someone singing in the choir and someone who won't even be there. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #386,853 by Another Scott 2/25/14 12:40:33 PM Reply	Good catch. Well said.
Post #386,857 by mmoffitt 2/25/14 1:01:53 PM Reply	They did, however, determine what the cake represented and that was the basis of their objection. So, you aren't participating in a Klan rally (or endorsing it) if all you did was build the cross knowing the purpose the Klansmen had for asking you to build it, right? If part of my textile business involves the manufacture of armbands with swastikas I am not condoning or working in a way that furthers the cause of Nazism either, I suppose. I think there is a closer relation to the builders of a ceremony's props to the ceremonies themselves than you're willing to admit. But, that's okay. We can disagree about that.
Post #386,883 by malraux 2/25/14 3:55:20 PM Reply	Already covered that. determine what the cake represented and that was the basis of their objection. They also said they wouldn't make a cake for a gay civil union or a gay "commitment ceremony", so the actual objection was the "gay", not the "marriage". Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

No one here I know of agrees with me on this. - (mmoffitt) - (176) - Feb. 23, 2014, 11:45:30 AM EST

Public accommodations laws. - (Another Scott) - (23) - Feb. 23, 2014, 12:14:20 PM EST

Are we really that weak? - (mmoffitt) - (22) - Feb. 23, 2014, 02:22:57 PM EST

won't sell to blacks natives and rceaga - (boxley) - (14) - Feb. 23, 2014, 08:39:51 PM EST

And don't forget suspected commies! -NT - (Andrew Grygus) - (1) - Feb. 23, 2014, 09:44:03 PM EST

Actually, I'd be okay with that. - (mmoffitt) - Feb. 24, 2014, 08:24:58 AM EST

Nope. Thanks for herring. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (11) - Feb. 24, 2014, 08:38:52 AM EST

either you are a public establishment or a key club - (boxley) - (10) - Feb. 24, 2014, 11:12:16 AM EST

Dupe - ignore. -NT - (mmoffitt) - Feb. 24, 2014, 12:44:24 PM EST

I don't think flowers and cakes for weddings rise that high. - (mmoffitt) - (8) - Feb. 24, 2014, 12:44:06 PM EST

So it's a different in magnitude, not kind? -NT - (malraux) - (7) - Feb. 24, 2014, 12:49:49 PM EST

I don't think so. - (mmoffitt) - (6) - Feb. 24, 2014, 01:01:12 PM EST

If they stick to the... - (folkert) - (4) - Feb. 24, 2014, 05:02:54 PM EST

You mean ... - (drook) - (1) - Feb. 24, 2014, 06:20:13 PM EST

Yes... - (folkert) - Feb. 24, 2014, 06:47:20 PM EST

The baker may have. - (mmoffitt) - (1) - Feb. 25, 2014, 08:17:02 AM EST

These people are ignorant fools. - (folkert) - Feb. 25, 2014, 09:00:26 AM EST

Hmm, nope. - (malraux) - Feb. 24, 2014, 08:59:13 PM EST

What's wrong with treating people equally? - (Another Scott) - (6) - Feb. 23, 2014, 11:03:49 PM EST

I guess the difference for me was the purpose. - (mmoffitt) - (5) - Feb. 24, 2014, 08:38:24 AM EST

yeah, like shoving that handicapped thing in your face - (boxley) - (3) - Feb. 24, 2014, 11:16:41 AM EST

How many handicapped persons got married at the Grammy's? - (mmoffitt) - (2) - Feb. 24, 2014, 12:45:32 PM EST

how many handicapped at the grammies? :-) -NT - (boxley) - (1) - Feb. 24, 2014, 02:04:35 PM EST

There are some mentally challenged! :) -NT - (a6l6e6x) - Feb. 24, 2014, 04:17:55 PM EST

Homosexuality *is* normal, you doofus. - (pwhysall) - Feb. 24, 2014, 03:21:40 PM EST

Replace the word "gay" with "black" and see how it flies - (pwhysall) - (5) - Feb. 23, 2014, 12:18:08 PM EST

Nice try. Assumes facts not in evidence. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (4) - Feb. 23, 2014, 02:16:42 PM EST

Incorrect. - (pwhysall) - (3) - Feb. 24, 2014, 02:55:28 AM EST

In public institutions, no. - (mmoffitt) - (2) - Feb. 24, 2014, 08:42:46 AM EST

They're not private if they're public. - (pwhysall) - (1) - Feb. 24, 2014, 03:50:24 PM EST

What about if the door sign is posted... - (folkert) - Feb. 24, 2014, 06:54:17 PM EST

Of course, the Arizona business community has . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - Feb. 23, 2014, 12:23:10 PM EST

Here's the probolem (goining meta) - (drook) - (8) - Feb. 24, 2014, 12:55:18 PM EST

Unpossible!!11 -NT - (Another Scott) - Feb. 24, 2014, 12:58:57 PM EST

Heh. - (mmoffitt) - (6) - Feb. 24, 2014, 01:06:01 PM EST

Is it ok for a waiter in a restaurant to refuse a request? - (crazy) - (5) - Feb. 24, 2014, 01:18:52 PM EST

That's not the case here. Here's a better analogy. - (mmoffitt) - (4) - Feb. 24, 2014, 01:41:38 PM EST

and your answer is? -NT - (crazy) - (3) - Feb. 24, 2014, 05:21:39 PM EST

I'm not a fan of Compulsory Participation in Rituals. ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt) - (2) - Feb. 25, 2014, 08:38:58 AM EST

It is not a ritual. - (folkert) - Feb. 25, 2014, 09:01:50 AM EST

Who invited participation? - (crazy) - Feb. 25, 2014, 06:56:23 PM EST

Judge's ruling. - (Another Scott) - (21) - Feb. 24, 2014, 01:18:03 PM EST

Their argument was weak. But so was the judge's. - (mmoffitt) - (20) - Feb. 24, 2014, 01:37:47 PM EST

No. It compels them to treat them like any other customer. - (Another Scott) - (19) - Feb. 24, 2014, 01:55:13 PM EST

That's a little disingenous. - (mmoffitt) - (18) - Feb. 25, 2014, 09:57:17 AM EST

Please enumerate all the services that represent endorsement - (drook) - (9) - Feb. 25, 2014, 10:20:45 AM EST

There's a reason why I didn't take the bait. - (mmoffitt) - (8) - Feb. 25, 2014, 10:26:46 AM EST

Why? - (drook) - (7) - Feb. 25, 2014, 10:44:58 AM EST

10%? Update your stats. - (mmoffitt) - (6) - Feb. 25, 2014, 11:24:12 AM EST

Another half-step back - (drook) - (1) - Feb. 25, 2014, 12:09:40 PM EST

Bzzzzt. Wrong. - (mmoffitt) - Feb. 25, 2014, 01:54:05 PM EST

Try again. - (malraux) - (3) - Feb. 25, 2014, 12:22:40 PM EST

Good catch. Well said. -NT - (Another Scott) - Feb. 25, 2014, 12:40:33 PM EST

They did, however, - (mmoffitt) - (1) - Feb. 25, 2014, 01:01:53 PM EST

Already covered that. - (malraux) - Feb. 25, 2014, 03:55:20 PM EST

Having a business isn't a right. - (Another Scott) - (7) - Feb. 25, 2014, 10:53:54 AM EST

But Free Speech is. - (mmoffitt) - (6) - Feb. 25, 2014, 11:40:04 AM EST

Lots of "speech" is restricted for businesses. - (Another Scott) - Feb. 25, 2014, 11:57:36 AM EST

why would you have a problem with that? - (boxley) - (3) - Feb. 25, 2014, 12:01:13 PM EST

Is it the Buddhists that had it the same way? I forget. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (2) - Feb. 25, 2014, 01:02:35 PM EST

no, it was the nazi's that flipped it -NT - (boxley) - (1) - Feb. 25, 2014, 01:22:04 PM EST

Ah. Thanks! -NT - (mmoffitt) - Feb. 25, 2014, 01:30:24 PM EST

"No. I do not want to participate in that." FULL STOP - (folkert) - Feb. 25, 2014, 12:40:37 PM EST

Gotta give him credit - (rcareaga) - (20) - Feb. 24, 2014, 02:04:42 PM EST

Re: Gotta give him credit - (pwhysall) - (19) - Feb. 24, 2014, 06:06:23 PM EST

You must be new here? -NT - (scoenye) - (2) - Feb. 24, 2014, 06:09:04 PM EST

rofl! -NT - (Another Scott) - Feb. 24, 2014, 06:17:01 PM EST

as AS puts it... - (folkert) - Feb. 24, 2014, 06:56:48 PM EST

Actually, he does have a rational viewpoint - (crazy) - (15) - Feb. 24, 2014, 06:40:28 PM EST

So... that is what they call it... - (folkert) - (9) - Feb. 24, 2014, 06:58:20 PM EST

Unnatural? - (crazy) - (8) - Feb. 24, 2014, 07:01:32 PM EST

No... - (folkert) - (7) - Feb. 24, 2014, 08:53:23 PM EST

To close to reality, but not - (crazy) - (6) - Feb. 24, 2014, 09:25:34 PM EST

Well... - (folkert) - (5) - Feb. 25, 2014, 08:56:09 AM EST

ok, I can accept that - (crazy) - (4) - Feb. 25, 2014, 07:17:34 PM EST

So you're light in the loafers -NT - (drook) - (3) - Feb. 25, 2014, 07:28:25 PM EST

I wish - (crazy) - (1) - Feb. 25, 2014, 09:04:34 PM EST

Re: I wish - (pwhysall) - Feb. 26, 2014, 07:45:19 AM EST

Re: So you're light in the loafers - (rcareaga) - Feb. 25, 2014, 09:24:45 PM EST

The Slate piece is larger in Scale than this smaller topic. - (Ashton) - (4) - Feb. 26, 2014, 06:04:26 AM EST

If I have such a bias, I am unaware of it. - (mmoffitt) - (3) - Feb. 26, 2014, 09:58:32 AM EST

Re: "a business oriented problem" - (a6l6e6x) - (2) - Feb. 26, 2014, 10:07:23 AM EST

Indeed. :0) - (mmoffitt) - (1) - Feb. 26, 2014, 10:09:42 AM EST

Who (first) said..? "The people is an ass." - (Ashton) - Feb. 26, 2014, 05:04:00 PM EST

And this is why people FIGHT with you on the issue - (crazy) - (1) - Feb. 24, 2014, 07:41:45 PM EST

Yup. Also... - (Another Scott) - Feb. 24, 2014, 08:07:32 PM EST

I'm going to try a different tack - (pwhysall) - (16) - Feb. 24, 2014, 08:25:16 PM EST

I don't think it contributes, but I don't think it detracts. - (mmoffitt) - (15) - Feb. 24, 2014, 08:48:41 PM EST

again, let's do that 100% valid thought experiment - (pwhysall) - (14) - Feb. 24, 2014, 08:59:49 PM EST

Don't get hung up on "normal". - (mmoffitt) - (13) - Feb. 25, 2014, 08:27:54 AM EST

nonsense - (pwhysall) - (12) - Feb. 25, 2014, 12:51:29 PM EST

Normal is the wrong word. - (mmoffitt) - (11) - Feb. 25, 2014, 01:16:30 PM EST

Blue eyes are "atypical". Being over 2 meters tall is also. - (Another Scott) - (5) - Feb. 25, 2014, 01:18:15 PM EST

Sigh. The erosion of rights troubles me. - (mmoffitt) - (4) - Feb. 25, 2014, 01:30:00 PM EST

Businesses . are . different. - (Another Scott) - (3) - Feb. 25, 2014, 02:14:22 PM EST

Weddings.Are.Not.People. - (mmoffitt) - (2) - Feb. 25, 2014, 02:57:38 PM EST

(One more thing) Read the judge's decision again. - (Another Scott) - (1) - Feb. 25, 2014, 03:00:10 PM EST

42. ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt) - Feb. 25, 2014, 03:52:21 PM EST

then maybe find a profession that does not serve the public? - (boxley) - (4) - Feb. 25, 2014, 01:30:49 PM EST

No, that is NOT okay. - (mmoffitt) - (3) - Feb. 25, 2014, 01:55:47 PM EST

what if 2 gay men went in? I would assume the same reaction - (boxley) - (2) - Feb. 25, 2014, 02:34:20 PM EST

It isn't. I never said it was. - (mmoffitt) - (1) - Feb. 25, 2014, 02:52:16 PM EST

Oh... - (folkert) - Feb. 25, 2014, 03:08:46 PM EST

Plan C - (pwhysall) - (1) - Feb. 24, 2014, 09:10:54 PM EST

Unpossible!!11 - (Another Scott) - Feb. 24, 2014, 09:22:36 PM EST

Sullivan(!) puts mmoffitt's case a bit more cogently - (rcareaga) - (7) - Feb. 24, 2014, 09:14:00 PM EST

Re: Sullivan(!) puts mmoffitt's case a bit more cogently - (pwhysall) - (2) - Feb. 24, 2014, 09:18:10 PM EST

I'm sorry Monsiur, we are booked -NT - (boxley) - Feb. 24, 2014, 09:46:09 PM EST

I'm actually susceptible to the argument that - (rcareaga) - Feb. 24, 2014, 10:26:52 PM EST

Thanks. - (mmoffitt) - (3) - Feb. 25, 2014, 08:40:38 AM EST

Here's another gobbet of raw meat - (rcareaga) - (2) - Feb. 25, 2014, 12:26:28 PM EST

Er, what? - (mmoffitt) - Feb. 25, 2014, 01:15:49 PM EST

lrpd that last sentence -NT - (boxley) - Feb. 25, 2014, 01:32:14 PM EST

how about a slightly different twist - (boxley) - (1) - Feb. 24, 2014, 09:59:07 PM EST

see 386792 - (folkert) - Feb. 25, 2014, 09:08:51 AM EST

Even Republicans backing out. - (Andrew Grygus) - (2) - Feb. 25, 2014, 06:43:27 PM EST

I think that's due more to the threat of a loss of business. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1) - Feb. 25, 2014, 08:11:15 PM EST

Good. Let them lose the superbowl. -NT - (crazy) - Feb. 25, 2014, 09:08:19 PM EST

I've reviewed this whole damn thread again - (rcareaga) - (5) - Feb. 25, 2014, 09:16:20 PM EST

Deep in the closet - (crazy) - (4) - Feb. 25, 2014, 10:28:19 PM EST

too easy - (rcareaga) - (3) - Feb. 25, 2014, 10:27:30 PM EST

awww, dammit - (crazy) - (1) - Feb. 25, 2014, 10:39:59 PM EST

Hey! I'm 'old' too, mofo - (Ashton) - Feb. 26, 2014, 07:09:12 AM EST

It's not a phobia. - (mmoffitt) - Feb. 26, 2014, 08:32:55 AM EST

mmoffitt! Georgia agrees with you! - (rcareaga) - (47) - Feb. 26, 2014, 01:57:50 AM EST

Jeez, they're missing a whole new Enemy to persecute-- - (Ashton) - (1) - Feb. 26, 2014, 06:37:06 AM EST

that taint news -NT - (boxley) - Feb. 26, 2014, 10:49:18 AM EST

No, they don't. I thought I'd made this clear. - (mmoffitt) - (42) - Feb. 26, 2014, 08:31:32 AM EST

"I am opposed to wholesale discrimination." - (crazy) - (41) - Feb. 26, 2014, 09:18:04 AM EST

I am not surprised. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (40) - Feb. 26, 2014, 09:20:29 AM EST

Well, that's what it is. -NT - (pwhysall) - (39) - Feb. 26, 2014, 09:24:21 AM EST

I may not agree with you. - (mmoffitt) - (38) - Feb. 26, 2014, 09:59:52 AM EST

You don't have to agree - - (pwhysall) - (37) - Feb. 26, 2014, 10:34:43 AM EST

The general form of that ... - (drook) - Feb. 26, 2014, 10:53:41 AM EST

Again with the misstatement of my position. - (mmoffitt) - (33) - Feb. 26, 2014, 11:01:07 AM EST

That may be your position - (malraux) - (4) - Feb. 26, 2014, 11:03:20 AM EST

Then he has an indefensible position. And THANK YOU! - (mmoffitt) - (3) - Feb. 26, 2014, 11:08:31 AM EST

El dupo. -NT - (malraux) - (1) - Feb. 26, 2014, 12:12:36 PM EST

That's your problem in this thread - (malraux) - (1) - Feb. 26, 2014, 12:12:12 PM EST

-999,999 for me for clarity then. -NT - (mmoffitt) - Feb. 26, 2014, 12:58:20 PM EST

Conflation of SSM with Klan and Neo-Nazi rallies? - (pwhysall) - (26) - Feb. 26, 2014, 11:24:15 AM EST

Reductio ad absurdum. - (mmoffitt) - (25) - Feb. 26, 2014, 11:26:03 AM EST

Whatever. - (pwhysall) - (24) - Feb. 26, 2014, 11:30:31 AM EST

Nitpick much? Substitute a Crips or Bloods rally then. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (23) - Feb. 26, 2014, 11:46:34 AM EST

Re: Nitpick much? Substitute a Crips or Bloods rally then. - (pwhysall) - (22) - Feb. 26, 2014, 11:56:16 AM EST

Okay, so I assumed something not proven, but likely. - (mmoffitt) - (21) - Feb. 26, 2014, 01:33:09 PM EST

The second reply to you in this thread pointed that out - (drook) - (20) - Feb. 26, 2014, 01:56:46 PM EST

It's not the same thing. - (mmoffitt) - (19) - March 1, 2014, 02:11:30 PM EST

Stanford study from 1995. - (Another Scott) - (15) - March 1, 2014, 02:19:24 PM EST

Read the follow-up studies over the past 20 years. - (mmoffitt) - (14) - March 1, 2014, 04:00:40 PM EST

Point me to a cite, please. - (Another Scott) - (13) - March 1, 2014, 04:03:06 PM EST

That's not how that works. - (mmoffitt) - (12) - March 3, 2014, 11:25:05 AM EST

Eh? - (Another Scott) - (1) - March 3, 2014, 11:37:12 AM EST

thats the prove there is no gawd argument :-) -NT - (boxley) - March 3, 2014, 12:04:47 PM EST

So... when did you CHOOSE to be heterosexual? - (folkert) - (9) - March 3, 2014, 09:44:44 PM EST

This is my last on this, and only because I like you & Scott - (mmoffitt) - (8) - March 4, 2014, 09:28:10 AM EST

What's the hypothesis, here? - (pwhysall) - (7) - March 4, 2014, 09:54:42 AM EST

Re: what would attract you to this line of investigation? - (mmoffitt) - (3) - March 4, 2014, 10:13:16 AM EST

exactly, - (boxley) - (1) - March 4, 2014, 10:21:05 AM EST

Um. - (mmoffitt) - March 4, 2014, 11:45:25 AM EST

So you want to check whether it still is a mental illness? -NT - (pwhysall) - March 4, 2014, 10:24:30 AM EST

If we must keep this up, new thread please? -NT - (drook) - March 4, 2014, 10:29:52 AM EST

Because if it an illness, it might be fixable or prevented - (crazy) - (1) - March 4, 2014, 12:55:52 PM EST

New. Thread. Please. -NT - (drook) - March 4, 2014, 01:03:24 PM EST

So, when did you choose to be Hetero-Sexual? -NT - (folkert) - March 1, 2014, 02:48:49 PM EST

Either way, it doesn't matter. - (malraux) - (1) - March 1, 2014, 03:12:46 PM EST

Concur. -NT - (mmoffitt) - March 1, 2014, 03:25:06 PM EST

I think I get your position - (boxley) - Feb. 26, 2014, 11:52:54 AM EST

Well, we could be the Flat Earth Society! :) -NT - (a6l6e6x) - (1) - Feb. 26, 2014, 11:21:34 AM EST

Flat? FLAT? Everyone knows it's hyperbolic saddle-shaped! -NT - (pwhysall) - Feb. 26, 2014, 11:23:33 AM EST

well, there goes the gay black men convention in Atlanta -NT - (boxley) - (1) - Feb. 26, 2014, 10:51:28 AM EST

Then ... let them eat cake! - (Ashton) - Feb. 26, 2014, 04:55:08 PM EST

Arizona Governor Vetoes Bill on Refusal of Service to Gays - (Ashton) - Feb. 26, 2014, 11:24:37 PM EST

Story behind the AZ (and other states) bill - (Another Scott) - (2) - Feb. 27, 2014, 08:16:07 AM EST

So every judge is now a member of the clergy ... OK -NT - (drook) - Feb. 27, 2014, 09:18:49 AM EST

Thanks ~~what I'd imagined: textbook religio-anarchy. Again. -NT - (Ashton) - Feb. 27, 2014, 05:13:35 PM EST

You got a buddy - (crazy) - Feb. 27, 2014, 05:25:56 PM EST

Wie geht es Ihnen?
290 ms