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New Not exactly unbiased
Heck this article points out that environmentalists often end up fighting economists, and then goes on to claim that the economists are right on every point. In a magazine called the Economist no less.

The problem with simplistic analysis from the economic side* is that they assume that increasing money is a good thing without considering the real and/or possible long term costs.

Thus they look at the fact that food supplies have outpaced population growth as a clear with for the economist side, without considering the environmental damage done by the increasing use of pesticides and other highly artificial means of increasing food production.

They look at the increasing reserves of metals as a good thing without considering the environmental damage that must be done to get at it.

It's this sort of 'money is all' thinking that gave us the Philip-Morris study on the benefits of smoking to the economy.

Jay

* The environmental side has a whole different set of problems.
New ROFL. Definition of a tragedy:
A theory killed with a fact.











But there are so Many - of both.
Guess we pick the ones we like and..
Oh! we call that objectivity. I forgot.

Well.. there's one sure thing about the er environment - we 'adapt'. Eventually the new crew forgets.. what once was. So is it to be replicants and transistorized snakes; LA everywhere, then?

With a price tag on forehead, no doubt. Philip K. Dick - prescient. (And many thought.. 'just weird'. Then.)




Ashton
New Yep.
Oh, and I do truly love the:

"Bjorn Lomborg, once deep green himself, argues that they are wrong in almost every particular"

I have BEEN there!

I was ONE of them!

I know how they THINK!

Can ah get an "AMEN"?

If your position isn't strong enough to stand WITHOUT such "credentials" then it isn't strong enough.

Now for the funny part:

#1. "\ufffd Natural resources are running out. "
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Counter: "First, energy and other natural resources have become more abundant, not less so since the Club of Rome published \ufffdThe Limits to Growth\ufffd in 1972."
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Nice use of generalization to/from specifics there. We aren't running out of resources because we're producing more electricity than ever. And the flaw in this logic is............?

#2. "\ufffd The population is ever growing, leaving less and less to eat."
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Counter: "Second, more food is now produced per head of the world's population than at any time in history."
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But is it being produced close enough to the people that they can eat it? We still have starvation and such in all the 3rd World Countries.

#3. "\ufffd Species are becoming extinct in vast numbers: forests are disappearing and fish stocks are collapsing."
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Counter: "Third, although species are indeed becoming extinct, only about 0.7% of them are expected to disappear in the next 50 years, not 25-50%, as has so often been predicted."
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Translation: "We're killing the planet. But not as fast as some people say we are. And I'm not even going to talk about the acres of rainforest that are being cleared."

You want to know about fish stocks collapsing? Check out the salmon runs in Washington. Fewer fish every year. More people wanting them. "problem"

#4. "\ufffd The planet's air and water are becoming ever more polluted."
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Counter: "And finally, most forms of environmental pollution either appear to have been exaggerated, or are transient\ufffdassociated with the early phases of industrialisation and therefore best cured not by restricting economic growth, but by accelerating it."
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This is great news. And I hope the author will join me in some Washington state shellfish and a quick swim. Maybe some delicious fresh water from a stream in Mexico.

Yes, the pollution does seem to go away as our development improves.

That's because we pass laws against it and the factories have to go off shore where the laws aren't so stringent. The polution hasn't disappeared. It's just changed latitude.

So, we look further into this article. We find that oil is, indeed, limited. We have about 150 years worth. But that's okay because the Solar Energy Fairy will bring us cheap electricity while we sleep, sometime before out oil reserves are gone.

Even though there really isn't much of a limitation on resources.

Anyway, we're far more efficient in mining "Cement, aluminium, iron, copper, gold, nitrogen and zinc". So it's okay.

Can you say "strip mining"? I knew you could. Ever see a strip mine? Care to live next to one?

"In 1968, Dr Ehrlich predicted in his best selling book, \ufffdThe Population Bomb\ufffd, that \ufffdthe battle to feed humanity is over."

Hmmmmm, citing a book that's over 30 years old. That's just smart research. Nothing to do with having to fish for your facts.

"Instead, according to the United Nations, agricultural production in the developing world has increased by 52% per person since 1961."

Yep. Want to talk about engineered grains? The problems with them?

"The daily food intake in poor countries has increased from 1,932 calories, barely enough for survival, in 1961 to 2,650 calories in 1998, and is expected to rise to 3,020 by 2030."

Hmmmm, when I diet, I try to keep my intake at 2000 or less. My average daily intake is usually around 3000. If this is the "average", then why do we still have people starving over there? 2000 calories per day is certainly enough to live on (depending upon your activity level). I'm not seeing this.

"Likewise, the proportion of people in developing countries who are starving has dropped from 45% in 1949 to 18% today, and is expected to decline even further to 12% in 2010 and just 6% in 2030."

That would seem reasonable. If they had the calories available that were previously mentioned.

The part I don't understand is....why are these people still having problems? Their people are fed. If not enough to get fat, at least enough to sustain a decent workload. If all this is true, why are they still "developing" countries?

"The United Nations estimates that most of the world's population growth will be over by 2100, with the population stabilising at just below 11 billion (see chart 1)."

I see chart 1. And I'm looking at it. It seems to show a FUCKING HUGE INCREASE from around 1950 to today (just after the 2000 mark). Strangely enough, I don't see the decrease you've mentioned. In fact, the majority of the "levelling off" seems to occure AFTER 2050. Nostradamous, anyone?

"Third, that threat of biodiversity loss is real, but exaggerated." And so on about 1-2% of our original forests left and only losing one bird.

Would that be the passenger pidgeon? Or were you refering to the spectacled cormorant? Perhaps it was the carolina parakeet? Or was it bachman's warbler?

Yep, no problem cutting down forests if only one species will go extinct. I'm kind of confused on this concept of "one" meaning "several".

"And tropical forests are not lost at annual rates of 2-4%, as many environmentalists have claimed: the latest UN figures indicate a loss of less than 0.5%."

Strange, that we could have gone through 98%+ of the forests he mentioned at that rate. I'm wondering if this is another instance of "one" being "several".

"Fourth, pollution is also exaggerated."

For proof, we'll look at London's air over the past 400 years.

Of course, the polution is climbing in the developing countries, but this is okay as they will drop off just like in the developed countries.

Again, the reason the developed countries can have clean air is that they push the factories to the developing countries. Where are the developing countries going to push the factories next?

"In 1997, for example, the Worldwide Fund for Nature issued a press release entitled, \ufffdTwo-thirds of the world's forests lost forever\ufffd. The truth turns out to be nearer 20%."

Okay, but your earlier statements claimed that 98%+ of certain forests were gone. Again, one == several?

"Yet a green organisation opposing such a weakening is seen as altruistic, even if a dispassionate view of the controls in question might suggest they are doing more harm than good."

Of course, "harm" is defined by the person defining it. I guess someone is definning it economically.

"A more balanced view comes from a recent article in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society."

Hmmmm, he doesn't say that it DIDN'T cause those 22 deaths. Just that it saved (an estimated) 850 others.

And in other news today, the following people DID NOT DIE.

Right.

"Yet, even if America's trash output continues to rise as it has done in the past, and even if the American population doubles by 2100, all the rubbish America produces through the entire 21st century will still take up only the area of a square, each of whose sides measures 28km (18 miles)."

Hmmmmm, two dimensional measurements for three dimensional objects?

How high is that trash piled?

How deep is the pit?

If I take a pile of 8.5x11 inch paper, how many pages would I have to throw away to take up that much room? (assume I don't recycle).

Math just isn't this guy's strong point.

"Most environmental measures are less cost-effective than interventions aimed at improving safety (such as installing air-bags in cars) and those involving medical screening and vaccination. Some are absurdly expensive."

So what? The cost is passed to the consumer. The consumer can determine whether to pay for the item or not. But a poisoned consumer doesn't have a choice not to be poisoned.

"Despite the intuition that something drastic needs to be done about such a costly problem, economic analyses clearly show that it will be far more expensive to cut carbon-dioxide emissions radically than to pay the costs of adaptation to the increased temperatures."

Translation: "It's cheaper to buy snorkels for everyone on the coast than it is for us to cut emissions."

"A model by Tom Wigley, one of the main authors of the reports of the UN Climate Change Panel, shows how an expected temperature increase of 2.1\ufffdC in 2100 would be diminished by the treaty to an increase of 1.9\ufffdC instead."

And this model is accurate? Why do you believe so?

"Yet, the cost of Kyoto, for the United States alone, will be higher than the cost of solving the world's single most pressing health problem: providing universal access to clean drinking water and sanitation. Such measures would avoid 2m deaths every year, and prevent half a billion people from becoming seriously ill."

Hold on! I read the rest of your paper and you seem to be saying that everything is hunky-dorey. Now you say that we have polution problems? Which is it?

"It may be costly to be overly optimistic\ufffdbut more costly still to be too pessimistic."

Ummmmm, I'd have to disagree with that. Here's a glass of water. It may or may not be poisoned with lead. What's the cost of it being poisoned and you drinking it? How much are you willing to pay to avoid that?
New zing! paying out line
still waiting for double m.
Drilling in Alaska will not hurt the caribou, Current North slope data proves that.

The envirowhores (and I cannot lump anyone here with them as you dont I hope take contributions and put them in your pocket.)are using the drilling issue as a cash gathering tool. They cry about roads to be built. Dumasses dont even kbow that roads are not needed as everything moves by cat train over snow in the winter and air in the summer.They cry about the Polar bears. Polar bears dont hunt on shore, they eat seals. Locally I even heard one moaning about Dall sheep! the nearest fscking Dall sheep is in the brooks range at distance from key west to orlando.

Now if I know by personal experience that the Sierra Club and others is absolutely full of shit on this one issue, how much trust do I place in them on other issues? About the same as I believed old brudda bill wagging his finger and lying about a blowjob.

If I know by their actions that NOW doesnt give a shit about certain mens behavior, why should I believe them on Womens issues?

If I know that Bush lied about a tax refund of $600 and I find that it is actully an advance on next years money guarranties I wont vote fer him in the next election just as I didnt in the past one.

thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Politics.
Welcome to the world of politics.

Whether or not certain herds are harmed by drilling/roads/whatever cannot REALLY be determined until AFTER such is done. All that can be done PRIOR is to model the situation and "predict" results.

Of course, each model is based upon certain assumptions. And these assumptions vary with the bias of the person doing the modeling.

As for politicians not being completely truthful about sex.......... Geeeeeee, I've NEVER heard of that before. Ever.

As for NOW's public endorsement, anytime you want to get into a public/private moral value discussion, just post your position. I can understand NOW's having trouble believing some allegations when the person accused does such great work in the public sector. They also don't WANT to believe that their hero isn't a hero. Simple denial. They're showing their bias in what evidence they accept or not.

Trust no one.

Still, I would tend to give more weight to NOW's position regarding women's issues.

Just as I would tend to give less weight to someone's "predictions" about the environmental impact of certain actions if said person was to personally profit from such. (or worked for a company that would).

Do you trust cancer research funded by the tobacco industry?

The radical element has to keep pushing for more.

That's what defines the radical element.

As more and more of their goals are accomplished, the less radical members drop the group. What USED to be a relevant, needed organization becomes nothing more than single-issue freaks.

New minor nit
Whether or not certain herds are harmed by drilling/roads/whatever cannot REALLY be determined until AFTER such is done. All that can be done PRIOR is to model the situation and "predict" results.

Already done about 80 miles east at Prudoe Bay the head of the Alaska Pipeline.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
     I clear my left nostril in the direction of the ecowhores - (boxley) - (6)
         Not exactly unbiased - (JayMehaffey) - (5)
             ROFL. Definition of a tragedy: - (Ashton)
             Yep. - (Brandioch) - (3)
                 zing! paying out line - (boxley) - (2)
                     Politics. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                         minor nit - (boxley)

Know what's better than being born on third base? Being born in the owner's box.
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