Fatal flaw of Treo and Visor Phone? No analog reception?

Post #38,318 by Another Scott 5/11/02 10:30:14 AM Reply	Fatal flaw of Treo and Visor Phone? No analog reception? Hi, My ancient Qualcomm 2700 PCS phone is dying (won't charge, plus it doesn't have a "hands free" microphone/speaker) and I'm considering what to do to replace it. I'm considering a Motorola StarTAC 7867 (my wife has one. It's nice but is getting hard to find except on ebay - around $55-$90 depending on condition, etc.). I've got a Handspring Visor Platinum that I feel uncomfortable without, so the Visor Phone and new Treo 180 have been interesting to consider. The Visor Phone is free from Handspring (with new service activation). The Treo is $300 (including a $100 reduction for previous Handspring owners). Changing PCS plans from Sprint PCS (CDMA) to Voicestream (GSM) wouldn't be that big of an inconvenince (though having no annual contract with Sprint is nice) if the phone and PDA worked well. (There's a Sprint PCS Visor Phone "Digital Link", but it is $250. rather than free.) In fact, the idea of sending Sprint another $35 to activate a new phone isn't really appealing.... I don't use my phone much most of the time, but do when I travel (a few times a year). Both the Treo and Visor Phone are "dual band" phones - BUT - by dual band it seems they mean 900 MHz and 1900 MHz GSM not (as is usually the case in the US with PCS phones) digital and 800 MHz analog. Since most of the US isn't covered by digital service, having analog coverage is importatnt. Do any of you folks in the US have one of these things? Is the lack of analog coverage a fatal flaw? Am I misinterpreting the capabilities of these phones? Is the voice quality with the Visor Phone acceptable (I've read some complaints about it.) Assuming the limitations above are correct: If you were buying a small PCS phone now, what would you get? Any opinions on the Motorola V60 ($250 with rebate at Voicestream)? Samsung SPH-A400 ($150 at SprintPCS)? Others? Neither Palm, nor Sony, nor the Sharp Zaurus seem to have anything comparable to the Treo nor Visor Phone. Is that true? (Voicestream is advertising an upcoming Windows-based [link\|http://www.voicestream.com/pocketpc/default.asp\|"PocketPC Phone Edition"] thingy. I would guess that it would have about 3 minutes of talk time even if I were interested in it (which I'm not).) Thanks! Cheers, Scott.
Post #38,396 by tonytib 5/12/02 8:30:18 PM Reply	It's a GSM thing The VisorPhone / Treo are GSM based. I don't know of ANY GSM phone that has analog (AMPS) backup ability. I specifically know that analog backup is not offered by PacHell (now Cingular), the only GSM provider in California. That's one reason I went with Sprint. At least you have the option of Voicestream (PacBell in CA does not provide good coverage). I can't think of any inexpensive PDA/Cell phone alternatives to the Treo, unless you can get your hands on the bulky Kyocera monochrome Palm Sprint PCS phone ($150 or less). Samsung has a color Palm Sprint PCS phone (for $450 IIRC). The V60 is pretty nice (a friend has one); the LG TP5250 for Sprint PCS looks really sweet, too. If you don't use your phone a lot, you might want to investigate pre-paid cellular. My friend with the V60 uses it (and a lot of SMS text messaging). Another consideration with phones is where you buy them. Sprint phones can only be used with Sprint. I believe PacHell normally locks their phones so they can only be used with PacHell -- you have to beg customer service for the master unlock code. I had this same problem with my German GSM phone (D2). But, if you buy a GSM provider from a third party, it can be used with any network (as long as it can handle the frequency in use, of course). Or, if you phone is compatible with the original dual band Sony (IIRC it is), I happen to have the hands-free headset for that phone and would be willing to send it for the cost of shipping (it plugs into the bottom of the phone using the charger connection). Of course, you'd have to buy a new battery. (I also have the Sony phone with a dead battery, but I'll probably donate it to Sprint PCS for a tax writeoff). Tony
Post #38,398 by Another Scott 5/12/02 8:59:46 PM Reply	Thanks for the info. Went with a used StarTAC. Hi Tony, Thanks for the info. Earlier today I bought a used StarTAC on ebay. We'll see how it goes. I didn't know about the GSM limitation (not having analog as well) until I started researching this. I would think that uptake of the Treo, etc., in the US would be much higher if it also had analog support. Thanks for the offer on the hands-free. I thought I found one at BestBuy - it claimed it was for Qualcomm and looked similar, but the connection was different. It was for a different model Qualcomm phone. (I think you're right that it's the same as the Sony though.) I think my phone's a lost cause. I haven't been able to charge it since I dropped it in a toilet a few weeks ago. It was only there briefly, and I quickly dried it off and had it in front of a fan for 24 hours before turning it on. It comes on and works, but the charger doesn't do anything to the battery level. Since it was only $50 (refurbished) from Sprint, it's no great loss. Not worth buying another battery for.... If I decide I really need a combo PDA/phone, I might go with one of the clip-on Motorola [link\|http://www.cellularaccessory.com/motstarclipo.html\|organizer thingies ] for the StarTAC for $25-30. But I'll probably stick with the Handspring for a few more years, so end up using both the phone and the Visor. Thanks again! Cheers, Scott.
Post #38,433 by static 5/13/02 7:13:36 AM Reply	GSM and the VisorPhone. I read a good article nearly a year ago about the VisorPhone that answered those questions. Basically, the US and Japan are the only major countries that didn't embrace GSM when everyone else did with the result that everywhere else is either exclusively or predominantly GSM (or nothing at all). The US's stubborn-ness meant that one of the US systems collides with one of the standard GSM bands, so another was eventually created. HandSpring decided it wasn't worth locking themselves into the US market with an Analog phone, which explains why they went GSM. They also investigates a dual-mode phone but that would have delayed the product, made it much more expensive and considerably bigger. So they stuck with GSM. Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #38,457 by tonytib 5/13/02 11:17:37 AM Reply	Not quite true CDMA is quite popular in Korea (dominant there I believe), and is also used in the Philippines and China I believe. It's interesting to note that two of Sprint's biggest suppliers are Korean (Samsung and LG). AMPS is the original analog cell phone system; IIRC its technology dates back to the 1970's (and Motorola). Since the US was ahead in cell phones, we built up a large analog cell phone system, which still has better coverage than any of the digital systems (the US is a big country, and the greater range of analog (25 mi IIRC) versus most digital (5 mi for CDMA, GSM) helps. I can easily drive places where there is no digital signal -- and I doubt it'd be any different if the US had moved to GSM, since they're isolated spots) Of course, when the US moved to digital, the cell phone companies moved to 4 different systems: CDMA (Sprint, Verizon), GSM-TDMA (Voicestream, PacBell), a different TDMA (AT&T), and yet another TDMA system with 'radio' features (Nextel). Four systems plus analog is a mess. Given the initially spotty digital coverage (it takes several years to build up a network in the US) and widespread availability of analog systems, it made sense to support dual mode (digital/analog) phones, at least for Sprint and Verizon. As the carriers move to 2.5G systems, the US is consolidating on either cdma2000 or GSM/GPRS. Yes, there are advantages to one system, as in Europe, but it still isn't perfect (being able to use one of three crappy signals isn't any better than being able to use one crappy signal -- I've had personal experience with this). And, if the carriers worked on cooperating (e.g. SMS across GSM/CDMA) many of the disadvantages of multiple systems go away. I suspect there's more to the frequency allocation issue; different parts of the world developed their own frequency allocation. IIRC, Bluetooth uses frequencies that France uses for military use. GSM phones can use one of three different frequncies, so it isn't just the US that's different. Now I still think Handspring made a good decision to start with GSM, although they will be coming out with CDMA versions this summer. Tony
Post #38,583 by static 5/14/02 8:05:27 AM Reply	Interesting perspective. I'll admit what I posted was from memory. That includes remembering that the US seemed strongly inclined to disdain GSM as a system and that the third GSM band was added partly because the second clashed with other US cell-phone tech. But both facts might well be distorted. OTOH, I do recall the multi-system craziness in the US was widely regarded as the height of lunacy. :-) Analog in AU was AMPS. If it isn't switched off yet, then it nearly is because GSM licenses were issued with a guarantee that the AMPS system would be switched off on Jan 1, 2001 (there was a legal challenge to the switch off). Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #38,726 by tonytib 5/14/02 11:30:26 PM Reply	If you're really interested in who is using what tech & freq This is an incomplete but interesting starting place: [link\|http://sms.bigfoot.com/index.php?pages=networks\|Bigfoot SMS partners] Bigfoot.com is offering SMS text messaging from a PC to most phones. I might be interested in using it if I knew more than one person who uses SMS. What makes it interesting is that they list the technology and frequency (in hundreds of MHz), although it's not complete (e.g. they miss the biggest US carrier, Verizon). Also, I should note I'm really not a cellular geek; OTOH, I do have an uncle who's spent over thirty years in radio and cell phones. Tony
Post #38,732 by Meerkat 5/15/02 12:29:21 AM 5/15/02 12:56:06 AM Reply	Find some Aussies - practically everyone here uses SMS. [link\|http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,4279708%5E15328%5E%5Enbv%5E15306%2D15320,00.html\|This article] mentions that there are about 200 million SMS message sent every day in Australia. It's a regular SMS frenzy here, and most other countries that have inter-carrier SMS, or just a nice big monopoly :) Edit: Very timely that I happened to be browsing the site with the SMS stats :) On and on and on and on, and on and on and on goes John. Edited by Meerkat May 15, 2002, 12:56:06 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #38,759 by static 5/15/02 8:34:59 AM Reply	Always try the obvious first. [link\|http://www.gsm.org/\|GSM Association], in particular, [link\|http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/index.shtml\|this page] which is the page I found when curious two years ago about whether my GSM phone would work in Japan (it wouldn't). That BigFoot page is rather good, BTW. And you do know more than one person who uses SMS - Meerkat and I both qualify :-). Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #42,566 by CRConrad 6/17/02 4:41:34 AM Reply	With Peter W. and me, you know at least four SMS users! :-)
Post #38,603 by dmarker2 5/14/02 9:33:58 AM Reply	Re: Where is CDMA in China ? When ever I go there it is GSM - Motorola sell GSM phones there as do most other suppliers. China is regarded as the fastest growing and potentially biggest world market and it is GSM not CDMA that dominates. Cheers Doug
Post #38,626 by Another Scott 5/14/02 11:33:27 AM Reply	Story from TheInq on China's 2.5G system. [link\|http://www.theinquirer.net/14050208.htm\|Here]. The other big Chinese firm, China Unicom, introduced CDMA (code division multiple access) services earlier this year but although China Mobile is plumping for GPRS, the technology is not quite ripe, with high speed Internet connections still something of a pipe dream. Cheers, Scott.
Post #39,103 by dmarker2 5/17/02 8:06:47 PM Reply	Re: As I understand it ... CDMA phones are incompatible with GSM & don't use removable SIMs - that is the single biggest thing against CDMA phones as this part of the world (apart from Japan) have become used to & mostly want SIM based phones. CDMA services are vexing to transfer from phone to phone (a common practice here). Cheers Doug
Post #39,237 by tonytib 5/19/02 11:03:06 PM Reply	Life isn't perfect in SIM land, either First off, SIM cards have the predictable security problems (how come good security is always an afterthought?). One very interesting approach (to clone SIM cards) is to monitor external, physical stuff like power consumed and radiation levels. IIRC I saw that article on The Reg. Second, it's not always possible to switch carriers, since if you buy a phone from a carrier (often cheaper since the carrier subsidizes the price) they can "lock" the phone to reject other SIM cards. To give two examples, I could not use an Italian SIM card in my German GSM phone, and a friend who took his Cingular phone to Hawaii had to call and complain a lot to get the master unlock code so he could use a non-Cingular GSM card. It's also interesting to note that cell phone theft seems to be a big problem in Britain (or at least visible problem), based on coverage in The Reg, whereas it doesn't seem be a big problem here. With all of that said, there's a lot be said for transparent roaming (phone picks up the strongest signal for whatever carrier) and easy change of carriers -- it's definitely a lot harder to change in the US. And, despite the problems with GSM in reality, it's much, much closer these ideals than CDMA or mixed systems (like in the Americas). BTW Doug, have you been seeing the hype for public access 802.11? I've been seeing a lot of articles about it here; apparently some people think it may cause a lot of problems for 3-G cell phones. Tony
Post #39,559 by dmarker2 5/22/02 8:44:30 PM Reply	Re: I agree re 802 impacting 3G same news here. I have a 802.11b CF card that I can run in my Sharp Zaurus (and using that clumsy jacket, in my iPAQ as well). Here there is activity setting up 802.11b in coffee shops & building foyers & all I need do is turn on, access my email account (these services are being set up my my ISP (also my employer)). The belief is that 802.11b & the faster 802.11a (I think it is a) will negate a lot of the appeal of 3G. But if the average consumer thinks it is fantastic to use their phone to send pics or video clips to each other (here we have the Sony/Ericsson T68i phone that has such a camera that attaches to it), then I guess there could be heavy demand vs 802.11x which may better suit business people. The T68i works on GPRS (2.5G) - I have the T68 (prior model) got it for its bluetooth & GPRS connections. Cheers Doug PS at a recent demo at MS an MS guy showed us a PDA/Phone that was same size as a iPAQ - made by the same mfg that builds iPAQ for Compaq, runs Win2002. A bit heavier than an iPAQ but very sleek & slick looking. Supposed to be released at end of this month - sports a GSM module & dual band.
Post #41,429 by LUTZ 6/6/02 1:35:14 PM Reply	Re: Fatal flaw of Treo and Visor Phone? No analog reception anybody out there with a VisorPhone not using the Handspring TREO270 offer? Can you give me your serial number of your VisorPhone for getting the TREO270 discount? Is VERY URGENT, Hnadspring offer ends June 16, 2002 Lutz

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