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New Who are these people?
As Objectivism advocates cold rationality, you'd think it'd appeal to a cold-shouldered, atheist, rationalist like me. When I started reading Atlas Shrugged, I quickly thought it was stupid and hated it. I read all of it in case my objections were answered but no. Never mind the heartlessness, strip all laws and social conventions down to basic criminal, contact and property laws and there'll be unprecedented levels of slander, wage suppression and contract quibbling. And that's if we don't get scams, corruption and deliberate information overloading. Never mind who'll be directly paying the law enforcement. The economy would be terrible.

The rich and powerful could all choose not to corrupt such a system out of enlightened self-interest but people like that don't live on this planet. Even a cursory knowledge of history tells you this.

This is all a statement of the bleeding obvious. What I can't understand is why Objectivists can't see the obvious problems. Are they not rationalists?
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Matthew Greet

I'm not prejudiced. I hate everyone equally.
New They haven't grown up.
I greatly enjoyed The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged and a couple of other of her books. I was in my early-mid-20s when I read them.

The books appeal to guys who see problems in the world, who wonder why those with power don't make the "obviously correct" choices. She plucks the "self-reliant" "rugged-individualist" and "young hard-working rebel" and "rational" strings really, really hard and tries to make a consistent world out of it. It appeals to people who want simple answers in a complex world, but who reject religion as being for weak-minded people. It appeals to people who have seen idiots and "weak" people cause problems in their lives. It appeals to people who believe they are more special than almost everyone else.

She was shaped by her childhood and early life in the early Soviet Union (hi Mike!). (She came to the US in 1926.) She was telling a story in those books. She was trying to use illustrate how the world "might and ought to be". (She loved Victor Hugo and Jean Valjean because of the way Hugo could tell a story through him.) Yes, she argued forcefully that she had it all figured out, but it became a religion later on. She loved Nathaniel Branden as someone who could "always speak for me", then turned on him as the jealous lover she was (of course, she did it "rationally" in her eyes).

Of course, even if some elements of her "philosophy" make some sense, it was a cartoon. As others have asked, "who cleans the toilets in Galt's Gulch?". An ideal society may work by everyone rationally trading dollars for manual labor or the sweat of their brow or gadgets they have made. But, society isn't ideal, and, as you say, people are duplicitous. Some will enslave their weaker compatriots - even in this day and age, and even in a city like New York.

Insular intelligence that ignores humanity in favor of some cartoon idealized individual isn't something that will save the world. It can destroy much of what we have learned about building a society that works for the great majority (including the intelligent and the powerful).

People who are devoted Any Ayn Rand fans more than, say, 5 years after they read Atlas Shrugged have something wrong with their emotional development. They haven't finished growing up. IMHO, of course.

My $0.02.

[edit:] tyops.

Cheers,
Scott.
Expand Edited by Another Scott Oct. 19, 2013, 04:21:37 PM EDT
New I never read... her book. Still can't.
I've tried probably 10 times.

I get about 1/3 of the way through and feel like I'm reading something someone here would write. (and you know exactly the couple of people I'm talking about)

I just can't be asked to finish it. It is uninteresting, uninspiring and pretty much self centered poppycock.

Yet, I can re-read many other books, even from Arthur C. Clarke, Piers Anthony, Peter F. Hamilton or even L. Ron Hubbard.

I wonder how that can be.

P.S. I've re-read many of Asimov's stories... many times. So many in fact, I'm seriously considering buying full hardbound or even leather bound versions of many of his books. Of course hopefully also on acid free paper.
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
"No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." --Stanislaw Jerzy Lec
Expand Edited by folkert Oct. 19, 2013, 10:56:56 AM EDT
New Ya gotta believe!!1
An entertaining Thomas Mallon review from 2009 of a couple of biographies and the books and her life - http://www.newyorker...n?currentPage=all

Actually, Rand and her heroes were only Pied Pipering readers to get a flashlight and take the book under a cozy blanket. “Atlas Shrugged” never offered any serious alternative to the social order; whatever Rand’s intention, the novel was not a call to arms but an invitation to escape. The book could never, in fact, have been any shorter, because it needed to feel like a whole substitute world, a full-blown reassuring place — you’re right, they’re wrong; you’re special, they’re not — into which the discoverer can jump, as into a magic wardrobe, and then live, happily, airlessly, for weeks of reading and rereading.


Yup.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Thanks.. a fine non-hysterical summary.
And relates well to some insights from both Red Plenty and Europe Central re. the psychological effects of having lived-through [and beyond..]
the Massive/Instant! -upheaval which was: Lenin et al's massively unorganized response to the fact of Tsaricide.. with no more actual Planning than ...
... the Cheney Shogunate's permanent clusterfuck of Iraq--from start to today's UnFinished.

Particularly apt your comparo with the, er Narnia appeal, I wot. Pulling childhood-bathos emotional strings appears to be sometimes as invisible to an author
as to the willing consumers of simplicity in an obviously polar-Opposite World, in which all dwell.
(How's Come 'they' don't teach this stuff!?/warn about naïvete and its psyche-retardation ... early-on: say, ~ age 13?)

Meanwhile.. a Hobbit's enviro may be a suitable replacement for Blobjectivism: they live in earth-covered comfy little nests.
Perfect! in a world in which Nukes still prowl within the aberrant-grey-cells of ... other sorts of megalomaniacs than ..the simple-minded Aynish.

Adulthood.. is it vanishing, helped along by such dastards as the Koch Brothers and all who sail in her?
(But they aren't smart enough to orchestrate on That Scale--are they?)


:-) :-/
     Fallows and Atlas Shrugged Guy. - (Another Scott) - (8)
         Who are these people? - (warmachine) - (4)
             They haven't grown up. - (Another Scott) - (3)
                 I never read... her book. Still can't. - (folkert) - (1)
                     Ya gotta believe!!1 - (Another Scott)
                 Thanks.. a fine non-hysterical summary. - (Ashton)
         And the end. - (Another Scott) - (2)
             Interesting that he and 'Marketplace' (NPR) are 'partners'. - (Ashton)
             What, the French Wizard again? -NT - (CRConrad)

The meat is so under cooked it is starting to eat the salad.
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