Post #37,148
5/1/02 10:13:36 PM
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Re: Why does US spend so much money on Israel
This question is an interesting one in light of the mess that exists in the M.E. and the apparent harm done to US & US interests for appearing to support Israel.
My opinion is that US finds it far cheaper to support Israel than to maintain an equivalent military presence in the region to protect its national interests by way of oil stability.
I am sure we all understand that oil is still critical to US national interests. For the US to ensure protection of these interests requires a military presence in the region & what better way to do so than by proxy.
USSR funded Cuba as a proxy in a strategic region to them (not for protecting USSR oil interests but as a proxy for exporting revolution in Sth America & Africa). USSR had hoped that by exporting revolution to this region it could eventually topple Mexico & then US.
US needs Israel, the alternative would be far greater costs & the very high probability that the same violence targetted at Israel, would be targetted at US (Sept 11th being living proof of that prospect) should even more US forces be placed in M.E., in event Israel were no longer there as proxy.
So the political reality is that US has a vested interest in finance to Israel, up until such time as dependancy on M.E., oil acn be reduced to a non crital status. That is not going to happen any time soon.
Doug M
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Post #37,150
5/1/02 10:52:33 PM
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Even more so.
It's not just the dollars.
Israel has nukes.
By supporting Israel, we're maintaining a nuclear presence in the area WITHOUT the negative PR of us doing it ourselves.
And Israel is dependant upon the US for military parts.
US troops can, at any time, be ordered to leave any of the other countries there.
Israel will be there as long as they have the willpower and we supply the parts.
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Post #37,154
5/2/02 12:17:08 AM
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Re: Nukes is a very good point -
Israel has made quite sure that no other nearby Arab country gets to try.
And herein lies the real issue of invading Iraq. Israel bombed Iraqs first attempt at setting up an Arab nuke facility in the 1980s. Gulf war was used to smash 2nd attempt in the 1990s. A US invasion will be the 3rd in the 2000s. I am inclined to doubt that Iraq just letting in inspectors (unless under extremely odious terms to Iraq) will sufice to prevent a US action against Iraq.
We live in interesting times.
Cheers - Doug Marker
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Post #37,156
5/2/02 12:31:02 AM
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I find your (and Doug's) view strange.
We gave Israel and Egypt billions of dollars a year after the Camp David Accords were signed to help them implement their commitments. Our support of them has almost nothing to do with oil. Much of the aid is in military assistance, that is certainly true. But I know of no evidence that the US supports Israel's nuclear programs.
By supporting Israel, we're maintaining a nuclear presence in the area WITHOUT the negative PR of us doing it ourselves.
We - the US - have a nuclear presence anywhere in the world via our long-range bombers. We don't need Israel's nuclear weapons to have a credible nuclear threat in the region. And given that we often have little influence on Israel's actions (witness the last few weeks), relying on them for military commitments seems a bit foolish. Remember the Gulf War, when Bush had to work very hard to keep Israel from retaliating against Iraq?
Don't forget the US has other allies in the region - e.g. Turkey (a NATO member). Jerusalem isn't that much closer to the oil fields than Ankara. The US can, and does, support Israel for reasons other than oil.
A good Federation of American Scientists page on Israel's nuclear weapons program is [link|http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/Israel/|here].
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #37,159
5/2/02 12:51:31 AM
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Re: I think the point we were making is
That whilst US has nuke capability that can be deployed anywhere, actually doing so is an entirely different matter. It requires public & world opinion to be firmly garnered and on side, no mean feat.
What the Israelis do with their nukes can be argued to be out of US control so doesn't come back at US. Israel's nuke threat is a powerful deterent.
Doug
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Post #37,166
5/2/02 3:39:23 AM
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Most interesting - the FAS material.
Do you happen to know much about the "Sloika" (Alarm Clock) configuration? Now I have to find out if Chuck Hansen (Book: US Thermonuclear Weapons) has any material on the Dimona products.
It's been scary for a decade or more - how much info about even arcanery like 'boosting' is now out there. Hansen's minutely detailed drawings (and photos!) contain clues which I thought were ultra-classified, and had been grateful that they were.
We'd know damn little of this FAS report, save for a "religious conversion" -- so much for homo-sap security and those best-laid plans. Loved the, "show me the size of their coolant pipes and I'll tell you the MW-rating..."
Now one must wonder how Israel is dealing with the waste - can't dump it anywhere where it might be analyzed (even more clues there than "water pipe sizes"). Accumulate concrete blocks for.. future upside-down pyramid building in the desert, after it becomes decided: whose desert is it?
Even their own brand of DU (depleted-) is a record of their efficiency achieved: fire a shell and tell the physics world.
Anyway.. curious how much about Sloika is also just.. floating around (?) I've tried all-along to keep half an eye peeled for the details of the infernal mechanisms we love to create (I prefer to know what's blowing me up).
Thanks for the heads-up.
Ashton
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Post #37,258
5/2/02 6:22:50 PM
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I can't add much.
My knowledge of weapons like these is limited to stuff I've read in places like Richard Rhodes' "The Making of the Atomic Bomb". (An excellent book, BTW.) I don't recall if that book, or his followup, "Dark Sun" about the H-Bomb discussed Israel's program or not - but I doubt it.
I believe that [link|http://www.thebulletin.org|The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists] has had stories about Israel's weapons program over the years, but nothing much turned up in a quick search there last night.
It is amazing what's out there, isn't it? :-(
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #37,261
5/2/02 7:10:05 PM
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Rhodes very good. Also note his "Dark Sun"
"The Making of the Hydrogen Bomb". These did not go into the details so much as to be a How-to. Hansen's book I thought was ... how to put it? Wrong! to do. Yes, various scoops have occurred and diagrams been exposed, but mere curiosity (or publishing revenue) strike me as misplaced motives on *this* topic.
Oh well. Techno is the direction we have morphed, and the momentum is now out of human hands. If 'desktop laser separation' attracts entrepreneurs, especially of the ilk of Billy n'Bally - we are toast.
I'd have preferred that Rose Garden which nobody promised (either)..
Ashton
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