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New The Palestinian version of Jenin
[link|http://www.memri.org/news.html#1019657885|What they're saying amongst themselves, not what they're selling the rest of the world]

Excerpt:

Fighting the IDF


Sheikh Jamal Abu Al-Hija, the commander of the Hamas Izz Al-Din Al-Qassam Brigades in the Jenin refugee camp, told the Hamas website in an interview that the members of the various factions, "along with volunteers from the Palestinian security forces," prepared in advance for the Israeli incursion.(1) Sheikh Abu Al-Hija provided more details on the fighting by phone to the Qatari television channel Al-Jazeera, saying, "[We placed] explosive devices on the roads and in the houses; surprises [await] the occupation forces. In several places, there are clashes between the Mujahideen(2) and the occupation forces\ufffd The occupation forces flee in panic from the Jenin camp \ufffd but they escalate by using tractors, airplanes, and tanks against the camp. The truth is that the fighting is being conducted from neighborhood to neighborhood, like guerilla warfare. The Mujahideen are using automatic rifles, explosive devices, and hand grenades\ufffd"(3)


The London based Arabic-language daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat quoted Sheikh Abu Al-Hija as saying, "The fighting forces, from all the factions in the camp, have been equipped with explosive belts and grenades."(4) Sheikh Abu-Al-Hija told the Jordanian weekly Al-Sabil, "The Mujahideen managed to besiege nine Zionist soldiers inside one of the houses, and attacked them using hand grenades and bombs until the entire house went up in flames with the soldiers of the occupation inside. Witnesses said that the occupation forces extracted the soldiers charred and burned."(5)


Palestinian Children and School Bags Filled with Explosives


The Islamic Jihad commander in the Jenin refugee camp, Abu Jandal,(6) was interviewed several times by Al-Jazeera during the fighting. In one conversation, Abu Jandal said: "This is the second successive day that the Israeli occupation forces are trying [to enter the camp] with the help of Apache helicopters and tanks. But the steadfastness of the fighters, who swore at the beginning of the battle not to permit [the IDF] to advance towards this camp, defends the honor of the Arab nation from the alleys of the Jenin refugee camp. There were several attempts from several routes, but these were blocked. The truth is that our fighters have switched to an offensive; today we went on the offensive. The Israeli unit commander was killed this morning, 50 meters from the place from which I am speaking to you. I, the commander of the battle of the Jenin camp, have chosen for myself the name 'The Martyr Abu Jandal,' because all the fighters around me are martyrs. Believe me, there are children stationed in the houses with explosive belts at their sides\ufffd Today, one of the children came to me with his school bag. I asked him what he wanted, and he replied, 'Instead of books, I want an explosive device, in order to attack\ufffd'"


Asked how long his men would be able to stand against the Israeli military when all they had were light weapons, Abu Jandal replied: "No. That's not true. We have the weapon of surprise. We have the weapon of honor. We have the divine weapon, the weapon of Allah who stands at our side. We have weapons that are better than theirs. I am the one with the truth, and I put my faith in Allah, while they put their faith in a tank."(7)


Sheikh Abu Al-Hija also stated, "Some of the youths stood fast, and filled their school bags with explosive devices."(8) On another occasion, Sheikh Abu Al-Hija had difficulty assessing the number of Israeli victims: "It is hard to provide accurate data, and we cannot assess the battle by counting enemy losses. But the enemy's acknowledgement of 24 killed and 130 wounded attests that it has taken many losses. The list announced by the occupation army includes only the names of the Jews [killed] and disregards the names of the Druze and the Lahad soldiers [i.e. South Lebanon Army] who participated in all past incursions and [will participate] in the future as well. Our estimate is that the enemy has suffered much greater losses."(9)


Al-Sharq Al-Awsat reported that in Jenin, a Palestinian woman named Ilham 'Ali Dasouqi had blown herself up among Israeli soldiers, killing two and wounding six. The paper quoted a source in the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, who said that she had "followed the path of Nasser 'Uweis," who the paper said had blown himself up near soldiers in Nablus.(10) However, 'Uweis, the commander of Fatah's Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades in Samaria, was arrested several days later. It appears that the reports of his death in a suicide bombing were an attempt to facilitate his escape.


The Egyptian government-sponsored Al-Ahram Weekly ran an interview with "Omar," a young, one-armed Islamic Jihad bomb maker known as an 'engineer' who discussed how the Palestinians booby-trapped Jenin, including the participation of women and children in the battles.(11) "He is a member of the Islamic Jihad, but says in Jenin all the factions were loyal to only one cause: liberation or death\ufffd' Of all the fighters in the West Bank we were the best prepared,' he says. 'We started working on our plan: to trap the invading soldiers and blow them up from the moment the Israeli tanks pulled out of Jenin last month.'"


The newspaper explained: "Omar and other 'engineers' made hundreds of explosive devices and carefully chose their locations. 'We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the camp. We chose old and empty buildings and the houses of men who were wanted by Israel because we knew the soldiers would search for them,' [Omar] said. 'We cut off lengths of main water pipes and packed them with explosives and nails. Then we placed them about four meters apart throughout the houses \ufffd in cupboards, under sinks, in sofas.' The fighters hoped to disable the Israeli army's tanks with much more powerful bombs placed inside garbage bins on the street. More explosives were hidden inside the cars of Jenin's most wanted men. Connected by wires, the bombs were set off remotely, triggered by the current from a car battery."


"According to Omar, everyone in the camp, including the children, knew where the explosives were located so that there was no danger of civilians being injured. It was the one weakness in the plan. 'We were betrayed by the spies among us,' he says. The wires to more than a third of the bombs were cut by soldiers accompanied by collaborators. 'If it hadn't been for the spies, the soldiers would never have been able to enter the camp. Once they penetrated the camp, it was much harder to defend it.'"


"And what about the explosion and ambush last Tuesday which killed 13 soldiers? 'They were lured there,' he says. 'We all stopped shooting and the women went out to tell the soldiers that we had run out of bullets and were leaving.' The women alerted the fighters as the soldiers reached the booby-trapped area. 'When the senior officers realized what had happened, they shouted through megaphones that they wanted an immediate cease-fire. We let them approach to retrieve the men and then opened fire. Some of the soldiers were so shocked and frightened that they mistakenly ran towards us.'"


Jamal Huweil, an Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades commander in the Jenin camp, told the London-based Arabic-language daily Al-Hayat that "four Israeli soldiers were killed and [the Palestinians] took their automatic weapons. The youths with the explosive devices also put four Israeli tanks out of commission."(12)


Raed 'Abbas, a fighter from the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) in the Jenin camp, told Al-Hayat, "All the fighters were sworn to fight to the end\ufffd We have no choice but to fight, and this is the decision of all the fighters. The talk of fighters surrendering is completely untrue. If it were true, how come two Israeli soldiers were killed Monday morning? We estimate that their losses are much greater than what they are reporting. Battles between them and us are being waged at extremely short range. They have failed in all their attempts to advance, and our fighters are blowing themselves up in front of them and planting explosive devices on the roads. The situation is extremely dire. The [Israeli] air force is continuing its bombing. A few moments ago they launched several missiles, which set fire to many houses."(13)


All the Palestinians who were interviewed emphasized their intent to fight to the death, even in the last days of the battle. Sheikh Abu Al-Hija was quoted by the United Arab Emirate (UAE) daily Al-Bayan as saying, "After these days of steadfastness and unique resistance, the fighters in Jenin reiterate their motto: 'No surrender \ufffd either victory or martyrdom.' Our strength lies in our being true Mujahideen in the face of the new Nazis."(14) Unidentified Palestinian sources added, "The ammunition of the fighters in the camp has run out, and they have chosen martyrdom. They are fighting with knives and stones, and blowing themselves up in front of the soldiers of the occupation."(15) Haj 'Ali, a commander of the Islamic Jihad's Al-Quds Brigades, said that the Palestinian resistance persists in its intense fighting, and will not permit the soldiers of the occupation to take over the camp."(16)


Civilians and Fighters


Some of the Palestinian's interviewed discussed the role played by the civilian population in the fighting. However, their reports regarding whether civilians left the camp were contradictory:


Sheikh Abu Al-Hija said, "Even the youths had a significant role in the uprising. They refused to leave the camp before the incursion, and most of them are now under arrest by the occupation forces\ufffd No one was asked [by us] to stay or go; no instructions were issued to the residents by the fighters, and the choice remained in their own hands. It was necessary for some of the women to remain [in the camp] to provide services for the fighters. The behavior of the residents was honorable; they were determined to remain, to go through everything the Mujahideen are going through, and to provide them with services."


"\ufffdWhen some Mujahideen ran out of ammunition, they leaped onto the tanks in an attempt to grab weapons from the soldiers, who were hiding inside the tanks. As a result, some of them engaged in barehanded combat with the Zionist soldiers. Some of the youths steadfastly filled their school bags with explosive devices; some of the boys remained without food or water for four days. Although the women knew how bad the situation was, a large portion of them preferred to remain, to prepare food for the Mujahideen, to risk their lives by bringing water for them, and to raise morale \ufffd something that greatly encouraged [their] steadfastness."(17)


However, other Palestinians who were interviewed reported that most of the civilians left the refugee camps. The commander of Hamas members in the Jenin camp, Jamal 'Abd Al-Salam, said that the women, children, and elderly had left the camp, and that the fighters intended to fight to the last drop of blood.(18) Another man, Abu Muhammad, reported to Al-Jazeera from Jenin: "Every time [the IDF] tries to advance, a surprise awaits it \ufffd the blowing up of one of the buildings in the Jenin camp. Then they rush to retrieve the Israeli bodies and wounded, withdraw, and try to advance Israeli tractors that destroy houses indiscriminately on top of their owners, whether they are in the houses or not. They have sent away most of the civilians [from the refugee camp], but there is still a large number of civilians inside the camp."(19)


On this matter, Raed 'Abbas, the DFLP commander, said that the Israelis "destroyed many houses. They are trying to wreak vengeance upon the civilians. The army is evacuating the [residents of the] camp forcibly, in order to close in more and more on the fighters."(20)


In contrast, the Islamic Jihad announced that its commander in Jenin, Muhammad Tawalbeh, had prevented civilians from leaving the camp. The Islamic Jihad website announced that Tawalbeh died in his booby-trapped home when he blew it up on the Israeli soldiers inside it on April 6. The announcement went on to say that Tawalbeh "had thwarted all attempts by the occupation to evacuate the camp residents to make it easier for the Israelis to destroy [the camp] on the heads of the fighters."(21)


The Future of the Struggle

Sheikh Abu Al-Hija insisted that it was necessary to learn from the battle in the Jenin refugee camp. "We are proud [of the battle], and hope that it will serve as a model for the rest of the cities, so that there [too] the residents will be materially and morally prepared for any confrontation. We need to learn the lessons from this battle, and I hope the few dozen fighters who managed to face down the most arrogant army in the region will serve as a lesson for the Arab armies. The Arab peoples must learn from these victories, and not remain captives in the hands of the regimes that keep their basic rights from them\ufffd"


"The camp took a hard blow \ufffd but even had the blow killed us, they would not have killed the [armed] resistance. It will not be long until the ranks fill [again], until a new generation takes the uprising into its hands and raises the flag anew. This is not the first battle, nor the last. Our people will not be still until it sees our land liberated and independent."(22)


"Abu Ahmad," an Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades leader in the Jenin refugee camp, said in a telephone conversation with the Hizbullah weekly Al-Intiqad, "The Palestinian resistance will carry out more operations like the martyrdom operation in Haifa, in order to emphasize that it still exists and that it maintains its strength and its capability in spite of the blows [it has taken]. The martyrdom operation by 'Andalib Taqatqah [in Jerusalem's Mahane Yehuda market] is proof of the [Al-Aqsa Martyr] Brigades' capability of striking at the [Zionist] entity any time, anywhere\ufffd Martyrdom operations were invented during the time when the Zionists occupied the West Bank, and it does not matter much whether the [forces] are in the cities or outside the cities."(23)


'Ali Safouri, a commander of Islamic Jihad's Al-Quds Brigades in the Jenin camp, reported to the Islamic Jihad website in the early days of the fighting: "We have prepared unexpected surprises for the enemy. We are determined to pay him back double, and teach him a lesson he will not forget\ufffd We will attack him on the home front, in Jerusalem, in Haifa, and in Jaffa, everywhere. We welcome them, and we have prepared a special graveyard in the Jenin camp for them. We swore on the martyrs that we would place a curfew on the Zionist cities and avenge every drop of blood spilled upon our sacred land. We call on the soldiers of Sharon to refuse his orders, because entering the [Jenin] camp\ufffd the capital of the martyrs' [operations], will, Allah willing, be the last thing they do in their lives."(24)


In an interview with Al-Manar, the Hizbullah television channel, Islamic Jihad leader Dr. Ramadan Abdallah Shalah, stated as follows: "The fighters in the [Jenin] camp told us that this is a 'hit-and-not-run' battle, and that they are fighting to the last drop of blood and to the last bullet \ufffd and that is what they did. The Zionist enemy thinks he is creating a Palestinian Masada for us \ufffd that is, that we have chosen to commit suicide \ufffd but we say to him that he is mistaken. We are not creating a Palestinian Masada, but a Palestinian Karbalaa,(25) which will hasten the second Jewish Masada\ufffd until the Zionist entity ceases to exist\ufffd Today the Jenin camp was reborn, not destroyed\ufffd"(26)

I say:

Kinda puts all that whining into perspective.

[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
New What, no rejoinders from the apologists for terror?
Could it be I've got the last word on Jenin that easily?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
New You seem to be the only "apologist for terror".
And one with a rather warped memory.

If this is the "last word on Jenin", how do you reconcile that with your earlier posting about how the Israeli's attack would stop suicide bombers?
New They are still praying ...
that the UN commission can somehow come and save the day, and pin a massacre on Israel.

New The Arabic game of whoppers
Call one of these guys on the phone and the are like radio boy. In Lake woebegone all the men are strong, the women are beautiful and all the children smart.

These inerviews contain a lot of "I wish" and "We are" not much in the way of facts. Pretty common in that part of the world, let me translate for you.

"The Islamic Jihad commander in the Jenin refugee camp, Abu Jandal,(6) was interviewed several times by Al-Jazeera during the fighting. In one conversation, Abu Jandal said: "This is the second successive day that the Israeli occupation forces are trying [to enter the camp] with the help of Apache helicopters and tanks. But the steadfastness of the fighters, who swore at the beginning of the battle not to permit [the IDF] to advance towards this camp, defends the honor of the Arab nation from the alleys of the Jenin refugee camp. There were several attempts from several routes, but these were blocked. The truth is that our fighters have switched to an offensive; today we went on the offensive. The Israeli unit commander was killed this morning, 50 meters from the place from which I am speaking to you. I, the commander of the battle of the Jenin camp, have chosen for myself the name 'The Martyr Abu Jandal,' because all the fighters around me are martyrs. Believe me, there are children stationed in the houses with explosive belts at their sides\ufffd Today, one of the children came to me with his school bag. I asked him what he wanted, and he replied, 'Instead of books, I want an explosive device, in order to attack\ufffd'"
translation,
I threw a grenade, fired a clip and ran 3 blocks where I stopped a little boy and stole his lunch from his book bag, then I went home to watch the simpsons.

You get the idea.
Now dont think I dont appreciate the valor of PLO fighting capability, they have some hard men in there. Its just the rhetoric of the idiots that I dislike.
thanx,
bill


TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
New They have taken Goebbels to heart
They are masters at the "big lie". Repeat a lie enough times and people start believing it. The Jenin massacre story is a perfect example. The Palestinians kept repeating the big lie that hundreds of civilians had been massacred (in fact, they are still repeating it, after it has become perfectly clear to even groups like Human Rights Watch, who is no great friend of Israel, that there was no massacre) and the rest of the world bought it. Another great example, is the Sept. 11 story. A large part of the Arab world believes that Israel was somehow responsible, and believes that Jews received word not to go to work that day. In the West, that story is looked like as a joke, but in the Arab world it is taken very seriously.

New There's only one way to fight propaganda.
And Israel did NOT do that.

You MUST allow reporters from non-involved countries to WATCH the attack.

Israel played right into the hands of the Palestinians by restricting reporters.

Again, the Palestinians SHOULD have scrounged every dead body around and then buried them in the rubble to be "unearthed" later, when the reporters WERE allowed in.

Israel got very lucky.
New Whoppers, indeed.
We may or may not know what to believe, but we certainly know who *not* to believe. And that helps narrow it down a bit.

After all nobody tells just one lie.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
New Weren't the Israelis caught spying on us?
We may or may not know what to believe, but we certainly know who *not* to believe.
I REALLY have to admire your "logic".

Israel not only was caught spying on us, they also lobbied to have the spy pardoned by Clinton.

So, based upon your "logic", we shouldn't believe Israel.

After all, they SAY they're your friend and then get caught with a spy in your government.

After all nobody tells just one lie.
So you're saying that Israel might be lieing about the current situation?
New Sweeping generalizations designated as "Truths"
dont let the facts get in Marlowes way, he's on a roll.
thanx,
Bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
New While on principle I agree with you...
I have one little nit to pick.

Isn't just about everybody spying on everybody else, ally or no? I mean, what's with that whole Echelon thing, if not to give U.S. businesses inside information on contracts 'n deals in other countries, including our allies.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New Obv cite: "We *ARE* 'The Lying Species'".______QED?
New Spying is hardly in the same league as lying...
except maybe on planet Brandioch.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
New Now that is amusing.
"Honey, do you like my mother?"
"Yes, Dear."
That is a lie.

Paying someone to break into your girlfriend's apartment and search through her stuff for items or information.....
That is spying.

As for whom you should believe.

I'm sure everyone here knows which guy they would recommend their sister / niece / friend / whatever NOT be dating.

Well, everyone except you. After all, "no one tells just one lie".

Maybe if you got out into the real world a bit more, you'd understand the situation.
New I think his point was...
... in our world nowadays, a country can call itself your friend while spying on you, and not be lying. It's not true for persons, but true for countries.

Friends spy on friends, that's the modern world for you.
New Countries don't have friends.
They have allies.

A country can call itself your friend and still spy on you.

A country can call itself your friend and do anything it wants to.

Now, is a country that is spying on you actually your friend/ally?

Nope.

I don't see any distinction between what a country does and what an individual does.

Countries just tend toward larger scales.
New Trust.....but verify
Ray
New That was exactly what I was trying to say...
and failed, I guess.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now, is a country that is spying on you actually your friend/ally?

Nope.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I _was_ trying to say (as did Marlowe before me) that in this FUd world you ally can spy on you and still be a true ally. I'd be very surprised if England has no "extra access" to some of our secrets. Or France. Or Germany. Why should Israel be different?
New Close enough. The mourned loss of "Statesmanship"
may well be due to the ascent of that oxymoron, "bizness ethics", pioneered in our time by Billy n'Bally.

So while the above er 'contradictions' regarding the expected actions of "friends / allies / co-combatants" in war (or not-quite-yet-war) times have always been with us:

Seems to me that the general slothfulness we see today marks a new low, the infection of (most all) National ergo International behavior - as if a Nation were an IT Bizness run by drop-out barbarians, uncivilized by the socialization process.

These may be the final symptoms of the Corporatizing of the world, making redundant - surely obsolescent - even a pretense of humane considerations for those unfortunate individuals who have committed the Large$t crime of capitalist theory:

being / remaining poor.

Naturally the Spin begins \ufffd here. BS-speak has replaced all semblance of social intercourse, from the UN on down to Walmart (recently caught in the South-US: paying black workers ~ $5.10/hr less than white workers. And when called on it - fought back with threatened arrest of peaceful demonstrators.. til local public opinion / notoriety forced capitulation). But that was at just One Walmart... You have to deal with it One at a Time.


And so it goes -

Ashton
New They have done worse.
Remember [link|http://www.ussliberty.org/|USS Liberty] June 8, 1967? It may have been before your time, but definitely not before mine.

With "friends" like this,...
Alex

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick
themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." -- Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
New Nope. You're wrong.
The Israelis do NOT lie.

Because once you've caught them in ONE lie, you know they're liars.

And if the Israelis are liars and the Palestinians are liars then you won't know who you can't believe.

Which directly contradicts Marlowe's "truth".
-or-
Renders it useless as you will know you can't believe either.
-but-
If you can't believe them and they're telling the truth can you not believe the truth?
Life is a LOT more complicated than moronic jingoists would have you believe.

And >THAT< is the Truth.
     The Palestinian version of Jenin - (marlowe) - (20)
         What, no rejoinders from the apologists for terror? - (marlowe) - (2)
             You seem to be the only "apologist for terror". - (Brandioch)
             They are still praying ... - (bluke)
         The Arabic game of whoppers - (boxley) - (16)
             They have taken Goebbels to heart - (bluke) - (1)
                 There's only one way to fight propaganda. - (Brandioch)
             Whoppers, indeed. - (marlowe) - (13)
                 Weren't the Israelis caught spying on us? - (Brandioch) - (12)
                     Sweeping generalizations designated as "Truths" - (boxley)
                     While on principle I agree with you... - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                         Obv cite: "We *ARE* 'The Lying Species'".______QED? -NT - (Ashton)
                     Spying is hardly in the same league as lying... - (marlowe) - (6)
                         Now that is amusing. - (Brandioch) - (5)
                             I think his point was... - (Arkadiy) - (4)
                                 Countries don't have friends. - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                     Trust.....but verify -NT - (rsf)
                                     That was exactly what I was trying to say... - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                         Close enough. The mourned loss of "Statesmanship" - (Ashton)
                     They have done worse. - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                         Nope. You're wrong. - (Brandioch)

You might, rabbit. You might.
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