Post #36,333
4/24/02 3:53:07 AM
4/24/02 6:25:22 AM
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The international community and Israel
Many people don't understand why Israel is wary of the international community and it's organizations such as the UN, the Red Cross, etc. Here are some of the reasons why:
1. Israel is the only country in the UN that cannot sit on the Security Council (that bastion of democracy and freedom, Syria is currently on the security council)
2. Israel is the only country in the world who has no input in selecting judges for international tribunals
3. Israel is the only country in the world not in any regional organiztaion and therefore cannot sit on many committees (including the one about human rights,)
4. The UN videotaped the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers by Hizbullah, then denied that the tapes existed for 8 months, and then refused to give Israel full access.
5. The UN came to Lebanon marked the border, Israel withdrew to that border, and now Hizbullah is attacking Israel daily, what is the UN doing about it?
6. The UN sponsored conference on racism turned into an anti-Semitic lovefest, this at a time when among other things the Taliban was still in power in Afghanistan
7. Magen David Adom, the Israeli version of the Red Cross is still not recognized by the International Red Cross, the reason given by the IRC, that the Jewish star is not a recognized symbol (of course the Islamic Red Crescent is). One of the members of the investigating team being sent by the UN to Jenin, Sommaruga, is quoted by Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer as saying, "If we're going to have the Shield of David, why would we not have to accept the swastika?" Do you realy think that she will be an objective investigator?
8. The WMA (World Medical Association) is weighing kicking Israel out [link|http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/04/24/Health/Health.47649.html|
Israeli doctors risk expulsion from world body]
9. Did the UN investigate what happened in Chechnya, where the Russians leveled Grozny? How about Hama, in Syria, where Assad killed 20,000 civilians in 1982? What about Somalia in 1992, when US and UN troops killed almost a thousand people in 1 day many of them civilians? What about what happened in the prison in Khandahar (where the American Taliban was captured? Why doesn't the UN investigate the suicide bombings and see if Arafat is clearly involved?
10. World leaders have called PM Sharon to inquire about the health and welfare of Arafat, these same world leaders, didn't lift the phone after any of the suicide bombings
11. A perfect example of the absolute hypocrisy [link|http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?f=/stories/20020423/4422.html|U.N. rips Israel on human rights But global body ignores abuses by Iran, China, Russia, Zimbabwe]
Edited by bluke
April 24, 2002, 06:25:22 AM EDT
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Post #36,340
4/24/02 8:52:46 AM
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Re: I know you feel strongly about this - but
There are some of us who can see the down side of trying to survive on a bit of dirt surrounded by dictatorships, where no political opposition is countenanced, where no one raises a finger or a dinar to help the Palestinians other than to rant at Israel each time the Palestinaians create more martyrs.
Fact here is that even among us westeners (of non Arabic oragin) the old biblical blame that the Jews killed Jesus (it was nothing to do with the Romans) means that not only Arabs are rabidly anti-Jewish, but so are to many of 'we'.
Russia, Germany, England, France, Spain, etc: etc: etc:
We can go back to recent history in 12th century when the modern pogroms started (in Germany) & spread thru out Crusader Europe, & England (Brits like to pretend that burning Jews trapped in buildings, never happened there).
So what has changed - not a lot - most people are as frightened of Jews today as they were back then (yes, frightened). So the modern tendancy to take notice of Jenin whilst brushing off the body smashing bombs & shrapnel that were being used against Israeli citizens going about daily life, I actually hear people I know saying 'oh the Jews deserve it - supposedly rational non-racial people)
The only accusation I can make against Jewish behaviour in Palestine is the building of settlements on siezed land taken after 1967. That is going to inflame passion, but, is being used by others with a nastier long term goal (that they publicly deny).
Hmmmm
Doug M
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Post #36,348
4/24/02 9:38:43 AM
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In agreement on the settlement issue.
This is all IMO, of course - but if Israel had not built the settlements, I would not be upset at Israel right now, assuming all other things that have transpired on both sides happened as they did. The difference between a Democratic Israel and an Imperial Israel is a subtle difference, but an important one.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #36,362
4/24/02 11:30:05 AM
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This has nothing to do with the settlements
From 1948-1967 there were no settlements, was Israel accepted into the International Red Cross, the security council, etc.? the answer is no. Settlements etc. are an excuse, we see this clearly from what happened in Lebanon. Israel withdrew, and called in the UN to mark the border. Did that stop Hizbullah and Lebanon? Of course not. They came up with another excuse. What does the world say about this? Very little. What does the UN do? Less then nothing (the UN hid a videotape of the kidnapping of 3 Israeli soldiers for 8 months). What does the press say about this? When it comes to the West Bank and Gaza, the press consistently refers to it as "occupied territory", NOT disputed territory (which is what it really is). Yet when it comes to the Shaaba Farms area which the UN stated black on white is not part of Lebanon, the press calls it "disputed" territory, why?
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Post #36,358
4/24/02 11:18:35 AM
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Even assuming that you are right ...
about the settlements, that still does not call for the international isolation that Israel is facing. The settlements are certainly not the worst issue in the world. Iran, Syria, etc. sponsor terrorism, the Sudan has slavery, yet somehow these nations are eligible for the security council, etc. (the whole list that I posted above). The fact is that Israel was in the exact same position from 1948-1967 before there were any settlements.
What do the settlements have to do with the Israeli Red Cross that is still after 52 years not a member of the International Red Cross?
Why is Israel singled out for human rights abuses when there are much worse things going on around the world?
Based on this can you expect that Israel will suddenly welcome a so called "objective" team to check up on the events in Jenin?
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Post #36,366
4/24/02 12:01:27 PM
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Oh, I agree on those points.
Sounds like some nasty shit going down against Israel. The problem is, Israel hasn't exactly kept it's nose clean. Remember, if you're yelling about the guy throwing shit at you, you'd better be certain not to be throwing any shit back - you just give the other guy more ammo.
Notice I'm not calling for Israel to leave the West Bank - I'm saying that the settlements themselves are part of the problem, and their existence gives the enemies of Israel a much larger pile of shit to throw around. If Israel hadn't started chopping up the occupied territories into little segments here and there, and instead just pointed at Lebanon and said "withdrawing didn't work - we're going to occupy these territories to make sure we don't get hit" there would be much less that the enemies of Israel could use as ammunition.
I sure as hell would love to kick Syria (or is it Sudan? Don't remember off the top of my head) off the U.N. Human Rights comission. I've sent letters to my congresscritters and the newspaper, and that's about all that I can do. I think the situation with the Red Cross is abhorrent, one that I wasn't aware of until today. I plan on making some waves about that too.
The real problem comes down to this: If you actually say "We're a democracy, and we have respect for human rights," you're giving those who don't agree with you a big stick to whack you with if you're EVER inconsistent with those statements.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #36,367
4/24/02 12:11:53 PM
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The American Red Cross
Bernadette Healy, the former President of the American Red Cross, fought with the IRC about this, and should be praised for her efforts (and if I am not mistaken is one of the reasons that she lost her job). I don't know what the new President will do.
What gets me more then anything, is listening to dictators like Hosni Mubarak, the Saudis, Assad, etc. lecture Israel about human rights, when their own countries are brutal dictatorships which tolerate no dissent.
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Post #36,401
4/24/02 3:10:25 PM
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Take pride in that
Israel is held to a much higher standard.
Those things you mentioned are clearly wrong (and I hadn't heard about the IRC one before, that is shocking) but when it comes to listening to lectures on human rights from dictators, well, as my Mom used to say (probably still does, just not to me) "consider the source." The source has no idea what they are talking about, and at least among my circle, is considered, on that topic, pure noise, no signal other than perhaps the occasion clue as to just how amazingly ignorant the speaker is.
You are the worst democratic state in the Middle East. But that's only because there aren't any others there to be worse than you.
When we criticize, it is usualy because your side is the only one listening, the only one looking for a way to peacefull coexistance. We don't see much point trying to talk to suicide bombers - they are beyond criticism. What would be the point in trying to shame Hitler by calling him a Nazi? We criticize when there is hope for improvement.
Hang in there.
I am not a man, I am a free number.
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Post #36,407
4/24/02 3:25:35 PM
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Thanks for the kind words
You are right, but it is tough to listen to this day in and day out and not be affected.
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