Fascinating.

Post #35,666 by Brandioch 4/16/02 5:00:09 PM Reply	Fascinating. From The National Review: When the Israelis cleared the booby traps and allowed Western media into the city on Monday, the reality turned to be completely different: difficult door-to-door infantry fight; 23 Israeli soldiers fallen in battle; dozens of terrorists killed. No massacre. So, lots of terrorists killed, but no massacre. Many houses were booby trapped by the terrorists who hoped to blow Israelis to smithereens. The IDF repeatedly ceased fire and demanded that all civilians leave the area, but the top Palestinian terrorists, true to form, were using them as human shields. So, the Palestinian terrorists were hiding behind civilians. But no massacre occured. Dozens of dead terrorists, but no civilians. Seems that the Israel military hits what it shoots at. That's some good shooting. You know, if this had been any other military operation, I'd expect to see some dead civilians (what were being used as human shields). Particularly 'cause the Palestinians have no problem disguising themselves as civilians. Like I said, that's some good shooting.
Post #35,686 by wharris2 4/16/02 6:57:28 PM Reply	There you go again I don't think anyone is claiming no civilians died, just that it was a battle between gunmen (who sometimes were using civilians as shields) and the IDF. There's still no "hundreds dead" or "Massacre". Plenty of Russian civilians, German civilians, Polish civilians, French civilians died during World War 2 just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. War is hell. For soldiers and civilians alike. The difference is that the IDF, at least until I see evidence otherwise, isn't trying to slaughter civilians. If they really wanted to do that, there are much easier targets than booby-trapped terrorist strongholds. Famous last RPG quotes: "I'll just shoot this fireball down the dungeon passageway..."
Post #35,687 by Brandioch 4/16/02 7:10:03 PM Reply	I'm just reading the articles. The difference is that the IDF, at least until I see evidence otherwise, isn't trying to slaughter civilians. And I'm sure that makes all the difference to you. To me, not trying to slaughter civilians means nothing. Like I've said before, "victims" or "collateral damage" or whatever. Dead women and children is dead women and children. And, >IF< reporters had been allowed in, the "evidence" would be clearer. If they really wanted to do that, there are much easier targets than booby-trapped terrorist strongholds. I'm not saying they were specifically targetting civilians. Does the word "indiscriminate" mean anything to you?
Post #35,728 by wharris2 4/17/02 1:27:47 AM Reply	Ah, so Israel should just lay back and let bombers in. That's what I hear you saying. Bombers were coming in. Israel went out and is trying to smack them off at the root. Rather than trying to whack the terrorists before they get the chance to strap some explosives to themselves, you want them to just sit back and just react to the next suicide bus-bombing. Yah. Works real well with me. Famous last RPG quotes: "I'll just shoot this fireball down the dungeon passageway..."
Post #35,759 by Brandioch 4/17/02 12:36:18 PM Reply	So, "reporters" == "bombers" to you? Fascinating. That's what I hear you saying. Really? When I say that Israel should NOT keep reporters and Red Cross workers off of the battlefield, you read that as letting bombers in? So, in your mind, "reporters" == "bombers"? Bombers were coming in. Israel went out and is trying to smack them off at the root. Rather than trying to whack the terrorists before they get the chance to strap some explosives to themselves, you want them to just sit back and just react to the next suicide bus-bombing. Fascinating. Allow me to quote from my previous post. I said: To me, not trying to slaughter civilians means nothing. Like I've said before, "victims" or "collateral damage" or whatever. Dead women and children is dead women and children. And, >IF< reporters had been allowed in, the "evidence" would be clearer. Again, I say that Israel should NOT keep reporters off of the battlefield. And you read that as me saying Israel should allow suicide bombers in. Fascinating.
Post #35,763 by boxley 4/17/02 12:56:39 PM Reply	So Reporters==evidence? If that is the case, Clinton should be hung, Bush did win the election OJ is guilty and all Palestinians are angels with just a couple of bad eggs that arafat cant control.:) TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #35,770 by Brandioch 4/17/02 1:47:03 PM Reply	Reporters == evidence. If reporters were there during Clinton's "crimes", the case would be a lot easier. (it's "hanged" not "hung"). We have LOTS of evidence about how the election was handled. We also have lots of spin. But the evidence is recorded. If reporters had been present during the killing, OJ's trial would have gone a lot quicker. If Israel had allowed reporters on the battlefield, the world could SEE how the operations were handled and SEE who the dead were and how many. Otherwise, it is all forensics and spin. If I were Palestinian, I'd be moving ANY dead women and children I could to those sites. Eventually, someone will start digging through the rubble. The more bodies they find then, the worse Israel will look. And it doesn't take a lot of dead children to affect world opinion.
Post #35,771 by boxley 4/17/02 1:53:20 PM Reply	flesh not rope :) TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #35,773 by Brandioch 4/17/02 1:58:52 PM Reply	TMI Too Much Information ewwwwwwwwww
Post #35,745 by static 4/17/02 8:24:00 AM Reply	That is the word. "Fascinating." The traditional media I've been keeping up with most regularly have been [link\|http://www.abc.net.au/news\|ABC News], [link\|http://www.smh.com.au/\|The Sydney Morning Herald] and news breaks on [link\|http://www.sbs.com.au\|SBS]. Just an hour ago, the news break on SBS suggested without saying so (nor overtly taking sides either) that exact truth over what is really happening is very hard to come by. There was a sound bite of an IDF soldier saying that they gave Palestinians opportunity to evacuate before bulldozing, but didn't force them. There were pictures of IDF soldiers going door-to-door and restraining Palestinian men. There was a shot of a Palestinian woman venting at the camera; the translation was that children are asking to be suicide bombers. It is not a situation with an easy solution, nor with a solution everyone will be 100% happy with. Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #35,762 by Brandioch 4/17/02 12:52:16 PM Reply	It's a nasty bit of business, killing. It is not a situation with an easy solution, nor with a solution everyone will be 100% happy with. Ending lives, destroying property, and so on. The best we can do is accurately record the events as they happen. That requires 3rd party reporters and camera crews.

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