I understand your point of view...

Post #35,135 by screamer 4/11/02 1:42:10 PM Reply	I understand your point of view... I also understand that my statement is probably too broad. I also know that Israeli soldiers are human beings and soldiers who might jump the gun and fire at the "wrong" people. The dirty little secret that my brother kept from his days in Nam until one year before he died was "why" his company killed women and children... Because in that particular military action, women and children were just as likely to hand the American GI's a basket with a grenade in it than were the "militants". Think about it. As well, do you think the Palestinian terrorist (who are the reason for this military action) give a fuck about who they take with them? While your doing "body counts" of innocents, while don't you include Israeli women, children, the elderly, foreigners, etc... in your next post. Israel cannot sit around and wait for these psycho fucks to die off by suicide attrition. The Israeli military is doing them a favor really - they're still martyrs, still get the virgins - just quicker and without taking any innocent victims with them to their psychotic paradise... Did it occur to you that if Israel (or the US for that matter), succumbs to the peace process because of suicide terrorist now, what doors this will open for future psycho fucks? We have a problem, let's go raid the mental hospitals and pay their parents $25000 to blow up the Eiffel Tower or the Dome of the Rock... How hypocritical is it for the US to say that 3000+ innocent Americans plus some very expensive real estate is much more important than a few hundred Israelis? There is the history and there is now... The Israelis have a terrorism problem right now. I haven't heard them giving us ultimatums about how we can conduct our military presence in Afghanistan... Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #35,147 by a6l6e6x 4/11/02 2:32:49 PM Reply	Re: "I haven't heard them giving us ultimatums about how we can conduct our military presence in Afghanistan..." That's because, if you paid attention to Osama, WTC happened in large part because of US uncritical and vast support of Israel and it's oppression of the Palestinian Arabs. So, Israel is responsible for us having to go to Afghanistan. Look, terrorism has never worked and does not work now. I don't know what the Palestinian Arabs had to do to lift the occupation of 35 years and get rid of the brutal Israeli oppression but killing innocent Israeli civilians with suicide bombers is not the answer. Likewise, the institutionalized Israeli terrorism against the Palestinian Arabs will not work. Believe me, if the Israelis were not executing their Greater Israel plan and had gone back to their pre-1967 borders, and were subject to the same suicide attacks, I would be supporting Israeli actions today. But also, Israel had an opportunity to have a Marshall Plan for the occupied territories and making friends instead of enemies as well. That was never in the cards. Eternal war, when you have the military might, is apparently just fine to have a Greater Israel. Don't pay attention to the Israeli words, pay attention to their acts! Alex "Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
Post #35,155 by Ashton 4/11/02 3:22:58 PM Reply	Marshall Plan? With what money? (And.. when was our last one? Don't bother to count the 'largesse' of the IMF in the survey). It must be added: lately we/IMF has been backing off hounding the terminally impoverished for.. That Annual Interest Payment, often 40ish% of their paltry 'GNP'. But Way Too Late.. when you are speaking of even enlightened.. Self-interest. 20/20 is always fun. How conveniently do you ignore the one constant, intransigent aim of Israel's local foes: to push all of the Jews into the sea. Period. Could this phrase have been uttered a billion times? - certainly millions. And backed by the unwillingness to accept any yet negotiated offer - as recently as 2 years ago IIRC. (Not that this was by some plebiscite of the 'Palestinians' = an accidental group which congregated through the years - but via the insistence of the nearby Arabs! who have always disowned their ""brothers"".. and left them to rot in Syrian, Jordanian 'camps'.) Arafat - kinda like the way we got Ashcroft/Dubya.. another accident of history. Tell me about his methods of controlling his refugee 'constituents' - and what happens to any one of them who proposes some settlement with Israel. Your posit that Israel unilaterally is The Devil.. convinces about as well as does the Christian prescription for all Christian-caused excesses: The Devil Made Me Do It! Sure She did.. Ashton
Post #35,158 by a6l6e6x 4/11/02 3:28:44 PM Reply	Perhaps some of the US $90 BILLION given to Israel. Alex "Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
Post #35,161 by boxley 4/11/02 4:07:07 PM Reply	With 2/3rds of that amount going to Egypt and the largess being showered on the PA. Oops, that is sitting in swiss bank accounts writing checks for weapons. thanx, bill TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #35,208 by a6l6e6x 4/11/02 8:42:31 PM Reply	And Egypt, having a population > 10 times greater. Alex "Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
Post #35,165 by ChrisR 4/11/02 4:14:14 PM Reply	terrorism is quite effective... ...but it really depends how you define your goals. If you want the opposition to strike back at you in anger and overreact, then it is quite good at generating that effect. Look at it in the current situation. Practically every country in the world is pissed of at Israel at the moment. They instantly forgot about the terrorist actions that were the cause of the current operation - with world attention being about 15 minutes. Now tell me that the suicide bombers have not achieved their objective. The mistake is in assuming that the terrorist has any goal of reducing oppression - at least over a reasonable period of time. Indeed, their main goal is to force the enemy to become more oppressive. In turning up the notch, they attempt to cause others to ignore their culpability, and feign victim status when the enemy attempts to strike back. I'd prefer that they practiced the art as applied by Gandhi - having your enemies strike at you without resorting to force. But alas, that manner seems to be beyond the reach of most people - preferring the instant gratification of violent revenge.
Post #35,181 by Ashton 4/11/02 5:32:58 PM Reply	But Gandhi was that Exceptional person - One who practised the ethical axioms which virtually all others prefer to honor - merely by fighting over.. Which unFollowed Creed is Bigger? (Mine, of course) And we have to remember how difficult that was - in a way he was a constant.. Threatened-'suicide'! [but never 'Bomber'] in order to keep-on keeping the folks eschewing that omnipresent temptation to Get The Bastards! (and enjoy.. that visceral fun a whole lot. Glory and stuff). There were periodic outbreaks of that. Is there even one Gandhi about in the world now? Obviously there is none, among those possessing any power not-to-wield in the usual gratifying way. Gandhi was an adult in a world of adolescents - some spoiled rotten, others inculcated with fantasies about rewards after 'death' and other tomfoolery via which priests/pols manipulate the masses and achieve their own temporal adoration. To my knowledge he never invoked any 'Gods' to bolster his reasoning - certainly never preached about the superiority of Hinduism or (whatever might actually have been his deepest internal beliefs). Few can resist personal advertising - to that degree, it seems. Alas, logic.. let alone reason, has little sway with adrenaline-besotted adolescents: any parents here? Pity there are no homo-sap Parents around -- the fanciful Ones in the Sky appear to have been deaf and certainly dumb - since their invention. I suspect we shall soon witness one Hell of a crapshoot, providing endless infotainment in the Murican Tee Vee dens. What a relief shall we then feel: it ain't happening downtown. Well, not in quite so dramatic a fashion, anyway.. Ashton What's for lunch?
Post #35,225 by Ashton 4/12/02 12:24:06 AM Reply	Forgot a Gandhi quote someone printed up - If we are to reach real peace in this world, and if we are to carry on a real war against war, we shall have to begin with children.

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