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New C#/.NET framework/Visual Studio .NET
Okay, I've been playing around with this one at school. No $$$ invested on my part, just a little time, which is okay since I'll probably have to face this bastard at some point if I go into software development, and not police work or firefighting. :P

C# (The language):

A helluva lot like Java. A whole HELL of a lot like Java. They even threw in the automatic document generation features. There are some syntactical differences, and I find C# easier to pull my mind around. To be honest, as a development language, I like C# better than Java. It seems to make slightly cleaner code, gives more overloading options, and just all in all seems very well thought out. Whaddya expect from the guy who made Delphi? OTOH, it would probably be quite easy to write a Java bytecode compiler for C# - due to the similarities between the two - without munging anything from the language.

.NET Framework (The API):

It's times like this when I really, Really, REALLY, REALLY wish that Microsoft was a better corporate citizen, and didn't have all that "let's take over the world" jingotism running around - because the .NET framework seems fairly well planned and thought out. Admittedly, this is all stuff they should have done years ago to avoid .DLL hell. And hey, it actually works pretty darn well as well, at least from my tenative pokings around the beast. Performs a darn sight better than Java does on equivalent hardware, but then again, they're running compiled binaries, AND they're targeted to only one platform, as opposed to the catch-all.

Incidentally, a large part of the .NET framework was written in C#, if that matters to anybody.

As far as gaping wide security holes, design flaws, and OS-shattering crashes, I haven't found any. Yet. I'm sure they're in there.

Which brings us to Part 3: Visual Studio .NET:

I'm not sure what to say here. Quite frankly, I'm a sucker for a good IDE, no matter how lazy a programmer it makes me. It's one of the nicest IDEs I've seen so far, although I wouldn't claim to know that many. (Forte for Java, Delphi 4, Visual Basic 4-6, Visual Studio 6 which was a real pisser, let me tell you!) Actually, I have to give them a "most improved" award - they've definitely cleaned up the mess that was Visual Studio. One of the things that bothered me the most about VS6 was the screen clutter - it was virtually impossible to do any kind of dialog editing without eating 50% of your screen with toolbars and status windows. VS.NET solves this by making them "self-hide" when not being used into small toolbars at the edges of the app window.

Which brings us to our first bug.

They've already got a host of them [link|http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=http%3a%2f%2fsupport.microsoft.com/common/canned.aspx%3fR%3dd%26H%3dVisual%2bStudio%2b.NET%2bBugs%26LL%3dkbvsnetsearch%2band%2bkbbug%2band%2bnot%2bkbnetfssdk%26Sz%3d|here], but the first one I found was [link|http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q313899&GSSNB=1|this one.] Basically, if you set your Properties window and your Output window to auto hide, then run a debug version of an app, then come back and try to access the Properties window, yer hosed. I noticed it within about five minutes of fooling around with the app, and I can tell you that the bug wasn't in the final beta version of VS.NET from prior experience. Basically, it makes one of the nicest features of VS totally fscking useless.

Well, what did you expect?

Now, there are some other nice features that the editor includes. For example, when you design a form, all the generated code is included in your source file. So, if you add a button to the form, the code for generating the button, setting the properties, and adding it to the form are all inserted into your code file for you to screw around with if you really want to.

Also included is a "section collapse" feature. Basically, there is an easy mechanism to collapse all kinds of stuff into a condensed form (such as comments, classes, functions, bracket sets, etc.) so that you don't have to look at it if you don't want to. By default, they collapse the aformentioned generated code so that you won't scare the VB programmers. Mouse over it, and you either get the comment associated with the section, or the section itself, depending on how the section is defined.

They've also included a real-time "spellchecker" with VS. It notices code errors as you're entering stuff, and then hilights it in real time. Problem is, it starts checking before you complete a code line, so it does freak out a bit early sometimes. It never gets in the way of you coding, but the constant flashing little red scribbles can get annoying. I'm sure you can turn it off somewhere...

Anyways, it's a fairly nice-looking package. If Microsoft wasn't such a rat-bastard, I'd actually be interested in developing in it on a regular basis.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New Section collapse feature...
... otherwise known as a [link|http://www.scintilla.org/|folding editor].

Inserting code from a form generating tool is old hat too. :-)

No one ever said MS couldn't put together other people's ideas in a nice-looking package... ;-)
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New No argument there...
...I consciously kept from using the word "innovation" in that review because I was certain, without looking for it, that somebody had already done it. :)
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New Hejlsberg's innovation wasn't just "inserting code"...
Da Scott:
Inserting code from a form generating tool is old hat too. :-)
...as a one-way ("form generating tool" --> code) process, but making it two-way: Edit the properties in code, and the "generated" form changes to reflect your changes.

No no no, I'm not saying he "innovated" that in C# -- this was way back in Delphi 1, in 1994. (If MS can't get at other people's ideas any other way, they just buy the people.)
   Christian R. Conrad
Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower.
-- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764|Andrew Grygus]
New So how do I use it
I just took a look at it. If I understand right, it's a .dll that you can use to add code editing to any other application. Can I add it to an existing, compiled product like HomeSite? Or is it only used to add the component to a new product you're writing?

HomeSite does allow me to select the code editor of my choice, but I'm pretty sure I need an executable to point it at.
===
I can't be a Democrat because I like to spend the money I make.
I can't be a Republican because I like to spend the money I make on drugs and whores.
New One way:
It's used in wxPython for the code editing widget. There's also an editor called 'SCITE' that uses it (same site).
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New This is nice
Now all I need is a good way to modify the color scheme. I can just brute force it in the html.properties file, but I'd much rather have something more user-friendly. Does such a beast already exist, or do I have to write it?

===

After further evaluation ... It needs more fine-grained hilighting, too. It treats all HTML tags the same. You can't have table tags colored differently from other types of tags, for instance. And in PHP there is only one type of keyword, rather than reserved words and functions.

It looks like these should be doable, but the source is too dense for me to figure it out. And other things are close enough that I don't have a compelling reason to learn C++ just to add it to this.
===
I can't be a Democrat because I like to spend the money I make.
I can't be a Republican because I like to spend the money I make on drugs and whores.
Expand Edited by drewk April 11, 2002, 04:43:35 PM EDT
New It was the best thing about the ISPF editor on MVS
Except they called it Exclude. But yeah, same idea. Wonderful for hiding great slabs of COBOL code. :)

"Ah, the good old days," he said, getting all misty-eyed...
On and on and on and on,
and on and on and on goes John.
New WebForms
I haven't played with it much, having no outstanding need to upgrade at this point.

What I found disappointing, though, was the WebForms interface. Lots of things look pretty on the surface, but they generate ugly code and much inefficiency in the process. Most everything is geared towards an event based interface for the server part of the equation - leaving the generation of much of the client code lacking - not to mention that I hate having to go through those dang wizards to futz with the database calls.

Only positive aspect that I see is that they have apparently given up on using Active-X for web based applications - heavily promoting Java, um, I mean .Net as the one true way.
New Chris, just out of curiosity...
...what's your opinion on [link|http://www.atozedsoftware.com/intraweb.html|ATOZED Software's IntraWeb]? IIRC, you have Delphi, so... Tried it? Any thoughts? Is this anything like those "WebForms"?


Curiously,
   Christian R. Conrad
Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower.
-- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764|Andrew Grygus]
New Looks similar...
...though I'd need to play with both a little more before drawing any firm conclusions. As usual, the Delphi community does the prior artwork. :-)
New It is my bread and butter so far
unless someone wants to give me a job writing C++ and Java code? Anyway yes it looks like they borrowed a lot from C++ and Java, and VB.NET requires older VB programmers learn new things like not using GOTOs, Try-Catch error trapping (No more "On Error Goto Errtrap" statements), indexes now start at 0 instead of 1, true is -1 not 1 (or vica versa? I can't tell because I have the beta of VS.NET), and many objects got changed. Sort of like going from Latin to Greek?

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
     C#/.NET framework/Visual Studio .NET - (inthane-chan) - (11)
         Section collapse feature... - (admin) - (6)
             No argument there... - (inthane-chan)
             Hejlsberg's innovation wasn't just "inserting code"... - (CRConrad)
             So how do I use it - (drewk) - (2)
                 One way: - (admin) - (1)
                     This is nice - (drewk)
             It was the best thing about the ISPF editor on MVS - (Meerkat)
         WebForms - (ChrisR) - (2)
             Chris, just out of curiosity... - (CRConrad) - (1)
                 Looks similar... - (ChrisR)
         It is my bread and butter so far - (orion)

"I couldn't have done it without him, sir."

"Cheek."
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