Post #34,953
4/10/02 11:04:01 AM
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Yes...
But not in the near term. The temperature is too hot. The fighting groups are both too self righteous in their "causes" and the world community is impotent to act in the best interest of either party. The solution to this problem will either be an Israel that includes Palestinian Arabs as equal citizens in Israel, it will be an Israel which borders an independent Palestine, or it will be a genocide/expulsion of either party - Israeli jews or Palestinians. This will have to be decided by the two parties involved alone - and it will have to be a political and not religious based decision.
This has never been an easy question because this region has historically been contested because of it's geography... and it's religious significance.
[link|http://www.palestinehistory.com/history.htm|
Who are the players?]
Because of recent history, specifically the last one hundred years after the Zionist movement... peace has not been anything different than the last 3000 years in history in the region.
[link|http://www.jajz-ed.org.il/100/maps/index.html|
maps of conflicts over the last 100 years]
and each side in this matter has legitimate claims to be made as to why they are justified in believing as they do.
[link|http://www.islamzine.com/ideologies/zionism/|A fairly balanced
Islamic perspective site...]
Is peace possible? Only when the Palestinians and Israelis determine that it is in thier mutual best interests for survival will they solve this complex issue.
As for your "answer" to attaining peace, what does it mean? I could easily substitute the word "war" in your analogy (can't fight on an empty stomach...respect your enemy... secure the perimeter) If you are defining "peace" as the "time between wars" then you are historically accurate. As Ashton is so found of pointing out, homo saps are incapable of sustaining a mutual respect for eachother. Sooner or later their "territorialism gene" kicks in... Peace is just a squishy concept word, like justice and brotherly love... Great for the campfires, but not much practical value in the human existence. YMMV.
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
"I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..."
P. Townshend
"Nietzsche has an S in it"
Celina Jones
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Post #35,056
4/10/02 10:26:56 PM
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Watch it! I might learn somthin from y'all.
(which is exactly what I'm tryin to do)
>>>> As for your "answer" to attaining peace, what does it mean? I could easily substitute the word "war" in your analogy (can't fight on an empty stomach...respect your enemy... secure the perimeter) If you are defining "peace" as the "time between wars" then you are historically accurate.<<<<
Sorry for the vagueness. This is related to Mazlow's Hierarchy of Needs. You can't reach certain levels of human development without meeting the most basic needs first. You are correct that this condition applies to both obtaining peace and obtaining war. I never really thought of it that way before. Thanks for the input.
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Post #35,108
4/11/02 11:42:42 AM
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Idealism is a good thing...
It truly is. I got out of corps America and took a college gig just so that I could work around young (and idealistic) people again. The only reason that I kind of "cynicized" your prescription, is that this particular region of the world is so complex that no boilerplate "solution to the problem" is to be found. I find it defeatist to say "there has never been peace in this region and never will be" and a little naive. In so much as there is ever "peace" anywhere in the world (remember, we in the US have not technically been "at war" with anyone for about 50 years :-) ) there will be a peaceful coexistence in the Holy Land. It's either that or the Revelation is true... Megido is not looking that far fetched this particular week.
The key point that I was trying to make is that I doubt that the Palestinians and Israelis will be dancing around the campfire singing Kumbaya anytime soon, no matter what solution is decided upon by the two sides. The concept that the United States or Europe or the Arab nations that seem obsessed with this war can somehow automagically make peace happen is also pretty far fetched. Getting to the level where this is a test for Bush (or Clinton or Bush sr. or Reagan or Carter or Ford or Nixon or Johnson or Kennedy) is just so much Katie Couric hooey... They have all failed miserably... Because it is not a problem that is to be solved by Americans. Currently, we have our own "terrorism" problem. We also have a credibillity problem when saying that Israelis shouldn't expand their territory into the lands of it's indigenous people (remember the Alamo?) The lines that were drawn in '47 were as arbitrary as the ones drawn in '68... An independent Palestinian state could just as easily be drawn into the area currently known as Syria or Jordan...
It is possible to attain a level of respect, at least enough to coexist. Watching Perez (Israeli ambassador for many years) on Good Morning America, he said, "you can't choose your parents or your neighbors" are the two truths he knows of in life... Many of the older Jews in Israel remember the Holocaust and do not want to become the Nazis. Cooler heads will prevail. From what I've seen, the Israeli military is trying to ferret out only the terrorists and radical elements. They are not killing Palestinians indiscriminately. It's serious business and they're not handing out balloons and smiles at the checkpoints, but they are dealing with men, women and children who will strap a bomb onto their body and blow it up in the offhand chance they might kill a Jew for Allah...
We need to let Israel take care of business and then we need to get down to the business of negotiating a homeland for Palestinians and also making sure the quasi apartheid that exists with the Palestinians who wish to stay in Israel is destroyed. Just my $.02
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
"I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..."
P. Townshend
"Nietzsche has an S in it"
Celina Jones
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Post #35,116
4/11/02 12:03:18 PM
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Re: They are not killing Palestinians indiscriminately.
That would explain the killing of the American woman and wounding of her husband, and the killing of Italian photo journalist last week, and the shooting of the Armenian monk a day or two ago.
Hold your opinion until the pictures of the devastation and body counts come out.
Alex
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
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Post #35,120
4/11/02 12:21:34 PM
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Check the Jordan Times
Armenian Monk has not been attributed to eithe the Israelis or the PA. Both had snipers in the area at the time. As for the American woman, that is like saying cincinnati police targeted a Nigerian Women during the riots. She is Arab and lives in Palestine.
thanx,
Bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
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Post #35,136
4/11/02 1:51:30 PM
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I must have missed the passing of the law...
that revokes US citizenship of an individual upon the entry of an Israeli bullet into their body. My bad. Perhaps a URL would bring me up to date on this.
Are you serious about Palestinian Arab snipers on the outside of the church? They would be dead meat and you know it. [link|http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/11/international/middleeast/11BETH.html|NY Times article.] The Israeli policy is "Shoot first and lie about later as needed".
Alex
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
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Post #35,148
4/11/02 2:32:54 PM
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url
[link|http://www.jordantimes.com/Thu/news/news1.htm|http://www.jordanti...ws/news1.htm]
Jordan times not exactly an Israeli Organ, read the last sentence.
In Bethlehem, an Armenian priest was shot and seriously wounded in the besieged Church of the Nativity, built on the spot where Christians believe Jesus was born. It was not clear who shot the priest, who has been trapped along with some 50 clergymen and dozens of other people \ufffd some of them armed \ufffd since the invading Israeli forces surrounded the shrine more than a week ago. Palestinian and Israeli snipers have been spotted on nearby rooftops.
As far as yer snide quip let us examine what happened in a way that you might understand.
An American citizen who was of Ukrainian Decent goes and lives in the Ukraine and is shot by KGB During a riot, the rest of the world hollers YOU CANT SHOOT AMERICANS. KGB replies, HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE!
Now how about the Americans the PA is blowing up all over Jerusalem, Oh, they are Jewish Americans, that is ok by me. That is different.
A Ghanian moves to New York and lives in Harlem. How is the NYPD supposed to know he is Ghanian and not a 126th St hoodlum?
Dont let your anger at Sharon make you blind.
thanx,
bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
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Post #35,157
4/11/02 3:26:11 PM
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Yeh, "That's funny, she didn't look American.".
I'll grant you, you can't tell by looking or that she was targeted because she was an American. But, do you suppose with a 9 month old she was a terrorist deserving to be mowed down? More like acting on orders that say "If it moves, kill it!".
The Jordan Times is just parroting an international news agency.
Alex
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
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Post #35,263
4/12/02 1:06:09 PM
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Israelis fess up on monk.
An army spokesman admitted responsibility, but stressed that the monk, who is now in hospital in west Jerusalem, had been dressed in civilian clothes and "looked armed". [link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1926000/1926332.stm|Link.] Note that while the link is to "the thoroughly biased and PLO controlled BBC site", the admission was also mentioned in dead tree version of the Charlotte Observer. Alex
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
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Post #35,135
4/11/02 1:42:10 PM
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I understand your point of view...
I also understand that my statement is probably too broad. I also know that Israeli soldiers are human beings and soldiers who might jump the gun and fire at the "wrong" people. The dirty little secret that my brother kept from his days in Nam until one year before he died was "why" his company killed women and children... Because in that particular military action, women and children were just as likely to hand the American GI's a basket with a grenade in it than were the "militants". Think about it.
As well, do you think the Palestinian terrorist (who are the reason for this military action) give a fuck about who they take with them? While your doing "body counts" of innocents, while don't you include Israeli women, children, the elderly, foreigners, etc... in your next post. Israel cannot sit around and wait for these psycho fucks to die off by suicide attrition. The Israeli military is doing them a favor really - they're still martyrs, still get the virgins - just quicker and without taking any innocent victims with them to their psychotic paradise...
Did it occur to you that if Israel (or the US for that matter), succumbs to the peace process because of suicide terrorist now, what doors this will open for future psycho fucks? We have a problem, let's go raid the mental hospitals and pay their parents $25000 to blow up the Eiffel Tower or the Dome of the Rock... How hypocritical is it for the US to say that 3000+ innocent Americans plus some very expensive real estate is much more important than a few hundred Israelis? There is the history and there is now... The Israelis have a terrorism problem right now. I haven't heard them giving us ultimatums about how we can conduct our military presence in Afghanistan...
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
"I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..."
P. Townshend
"Nietzsche has an S in it"
Celina Jones
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Post #35,147
4/11/02 2:32:49 PM
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Re: "I haven't heard them giving us ultimatums about how we
can conduct our military presence in Afghanistan..."
That's because, if you paid attention to Osama, WTC happened in large part because of US uncritical and vast support of Israel and it's oppression of the Palestinian Arabs. So, Israel is responsible for us having to go to Afghanistan.
Look, terrorism has never worked and does not work now. I don't know what the Palestinian Arabs had to do to lift the occupation of 35 years and get rid of the brutal Israeli oppression but killing innocent Israeli civilians with suicide bombers is not the answer. Likewise, the institutionalized Israeli terrorism against the Palestinian Arabs will not work.
Believe me, if the Israelis were not executing their Greater Israel plan and had gone back to their pre-1967 borders, and were subject to the same suicide attacks, I would be supporting Israeli actions today.
But also, Israel had an opportunity to have a Marshall Plan for the occupied territories and making friends instead of enemies as well. That was never in the cards. Eternal war, when you have the military might, is apparently just fine to have a Greater Israel.
Don't pay attention to the Israeli words, pay attention to their acts!
Alex
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
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Post #35,155
4/11/02 3:22:58 PM
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Marshall Plan?
With what money? (And.. when was *our* last one? Don't bother to count the 'largesse' of the IMF in the survey). It must be added: lately we/IMF has been backing off hounding the terminally impoverished for.. That Annual Interest Payment, often 40ish% of their paltry 'GNP'. But Way Too Late.. when you are speaking of even enlightened.. Self-interest.
20/20 is always fun. How conveniently do you ignore the one constant, intransigent aim of Israel's local foes: to push all of the Jews into the sea. Period. Could this phrase have been uttered a billion times? - certainly millions. And backed by the unwillingness to accept any yet negotiated offer - as recently as 2 years ago IIRC. (Not that this was by some plebiscite of the 'Palestinians' = an accidental group which congregated through the years - but via the insistence of the nearby Arabs! who have always disowned their ""brothers"".. and left them to rot in Syrian, Jordanian 'camps'.)
Arafat - kinda like the way we got Ashcroft/Dubya.. another accident of history. Tell me about his methods of controlling his refugee 'constituents' - and what happens to any one of them who proposes some settlement with Israel.
Your posit that Israel unilaterally is The Devil.. convinces about as well as does the Christian prescription for all Christian-caused excesses: The Devil Made Me Do It! Sure She did..
Ashton
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Post #35,158
4/11/02 3:28:44 PM
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Perhaps some of the US $90 BILLION given to Israel.
Alex
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
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Post #35,161
4/11/02 4:07:07 PM
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With 2/3rds of that amount going to Egypt
and the largess being showered on the PA. Oops, that is sitting in swiss bank accounts writing checks for weapons.
thanx,
bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
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Post #35,208
4/11/02 8:42:31 PM
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And Egypt, having a population > 10 times greater.
Alex
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
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Post #35,165
4/11/02 4:14:14 PM
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terrorism is quite effective...
...but it really depends how you define your goals. If you want the opposition to strike back at you in anger and overreact, then it is quite good at generating that effect.
Look at it in the current situation. Practically every country in the world is pissed of at Israel at the moment. They instantly forgot about the terrorist actions that were the cause of the current operation - with world attention being about 15 minutes. Now tell me that the suicide bombers have not achieved their objective.
The mistake is in assuming that the terrorist has any goal of reducing oppression - at least over a reasonable period of time. Indeed, their main goal is to force the enemy to become more oppressive. In turning up the notch, they attempt to cause others to ignore their culpability, and feign victim status when the enemy attempts to strike back.
I'd prefer that they practiced the art as applied by Gandhi - having your enemies strike at you without resorting to force. But alas, that manner seems to be beyond the reach of most people - preferring the instant gratification of violent revenge.
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Post #35,181
4/11/02 5:32:58 PM
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But Gandhi was that Exceptional person -
One who practised the ethical axioms which virtually all others prefer to honor - merely by fighting over.. Which unFollowed Creed is *Bigger*? (Mine, of course)
And we have to remember how difficult that was - in a way he was a constant.. Threatened-'suicide'! [but never 'Bomber'] in order to keep-on keeping the folks eschewing that omnipresent temptation to Get The Bastards! (and enjoy.. that visceral fun a whole lot. Glory and stuff). There were periodic outbreaks of that.
Is there even one Gandhi about in the world now? Obviously there is none, among those possessing any power not-to-wield in the usual gratifying way.
Gandhi was an adult in a world of adolescents - some spoiled rotten, others inculcated with fantasies about rewards after 'death' and other tomfoolery via which priests/pols manipulate the masses and achieve their own temporal adoration. To my knowledge he never invoked any 'Gods' to bolster his reasoning - certainly never preached about the superiority of Hinduism or (whatever might actually have been his deepest internal beliefs). Few can resist personal advertising - to that degree, it seems.
Alas, logic.. let alone reason, has little sway with adrenaline-besotted adolescents: any parents here? Pity there are no homo-sap Parents around -- the fanciful Ones in the Sky appear to have been deaf and certainly dumb - since their invention. I suspect we shall soon witness one Hell of a crapshoot, providing endless infotainment in the Murican Tee Vee dens. What a relief shall we then feel: it ain't happening downtown. Well, not in quite so dramatic a fashion, anyway..
Ashton
What's for lunch?
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Post #35,225
4/12/02 12:24:06 AM
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Forgot a Gandhi quote someone printed up -
If we are to reach real peace in this world, and if we are to carry on a real war against war, we shall have to begin with children.
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Post #35,139
4/11/02 1:56:02 PM
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Disingenuous, perhaps..
Just as Murica has its occasional Lt. Calley, and is not immune to its My Lais - there are bound to be Israelis in uniform who do not obey their orders. You are ever positing a systematic intent of the Israelis to indiscriminately target innocents. I deem this - patently false, thus scurrilous.
I doubt that anyone residing 24/7 in Murica can fully appreciate the effect of daily living in an environment where.. *any person* nearby (man woman or child) might.. decide to detonate him/herself "for God" or any other cockamamie form of homo-sap ugly fantasy.
I am unaware of a single Israeli doing likewise in some Arab locale; there is a one-sidedness to this phenomenon. I am surprised that, thus far.. only a handful of Israelis have freaked out and Gone Postal Murican Style\ufffd.
Unfortunately.. I see no magic Rx anywhere. So long as organized Religious Corporations continue to inculcate each one's Unique Righteousness.. and legions of accepting sheep pass-on this malady - how could clashes between any Two One True Ways produce any different result?
As to "God" promising territorial 'lot-line adjustments' for Chosen, unChosen or other kinds of 'people' - what can one say to such inanity as justification for clan wars across millennia? Juvenile Shit, 100% Pure.
Ashton
It's the Economy! ^h^h^h... Immaturity of the Species! Stupid..
(motto for ceasing the madness, followed by - mea culpa y'all)
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