What is the solution? Is Middle East Peace possible?

Post #34,921 by brettj 4/9/02 11:55:21 PM Reply	What is the solution? Is Middle East Peace possible? ... maybe a better question might be, when will peace be possible between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Any aspiring peace negotiators out there with any suggestions for peace? How does one normally find peace? My answer to attaining peace: Peace cannot be obtained until one's basic needs are taken care of: food, water, shelter, security, and possibly respect for one's neighbor (and thus one's self). Do unto others as you would have them do unto you regardless of what they have done unto you in the past. An eye for an eye just makes for a whole lot of people that can't "see" very good anymore. P.S. Obviously, sharing terrorist crib notes didn't work so we need a plan B, eh. I was sorta thrilled that the two sides were even considering working together on anything, until the 7 days of suicide murders started, that is.
Post #34,930 by Ashton 4/10/02 2:10:51 AM Reply	One pundit's answer... [link\|http://non-sequitur.com/index.php3?next=1&inday=7&inmonth=4&inyear=2002\| Absolutely!]
Post #34,939 by dmarker2 4/10/02 8:47:01 AM Reply	Re: Solution? - Try 'Why there will be no peace in M.E.' Critical issues for which neither side seems able to deal with. A right catch-22 .... A) 1-Israelis won't give up their settlements in the west bank (check the usual maps (TIME mag this week)) and this will continue to perfectly justifiably enrage and alienate Palestinians from the west bank who lost their land post 1967. 2-Israelis generally and justifiably, no longer have one iota of faith in Yassar Arafat's integrity. 3-The Israelis won't accept Palestinian demands that Jerusalem be made capital of Palestine (the country). B) 1-The Palestinians won't back down on demanding that all refugees be allowed to return to their ancestral homes - even where these are now part of Israel (pre 1967 borders). Asking for this is to ask for Israelis to be out populated by Palestinians within their own country by year 2010 and thus become a minority in Israel. 2-The Palestinians won't accept power sharing or neutral control of Jerusalem. My ideal solution (that has zero probability of even being discussed ...) 1.Compensate the pre 1967 expelled Palestinians by giving them the settlements occupied by Israelis in the west pank & gaza regions. 2.Give Israel full diplomatic recognition (per Saudi plan). 3.Allow Jerusalem to become an 'international city' with joint control, for the next 100 years or so 4.Build a fu***** big wide wall between the two peoples after the above are achieved Cheers Doug the Diplomat
Post #34,949 by brettj 4/10/02 10:14:17 AM Reply	Thanks for the insight. You've covered the key points nicely. I agree with your solution with the exception of the wall part. Remove the cause of the hatred and the need for the wall becomes unnecessary. Granted, deep rooted hatred takes years to eliminate but with the help from an international coalition of peace-loving countries, maybe there is some ray of hope. Look what the international community did after 9/11. If only that kind of cooperation could be directed to this current escalation in the Middle East.
Post #34,964 by Brandioch 4/10/02 12:18:04 PM Reply	#1. Death to all fanatics! Remove the cause of the hatred and the need for the wall becomes unnecessary. Granted, deep rooted hatred takes years to eliminate but with the help from an international coalition of peace-loving countries, maybe there is some ray of hope. The key problem is that there are a minority of fanatics, on both sides, who would rather die (or have everyone else die) than to have the infidels treading upon their holy land. Until those can be executed, expelled, marginalized, incarcerated or whatever, there will be no peace. Peace is possible. But first you have to disable everyone who will act upon his/her inability to co-exist with the other side. Or, kill everyone on the other side!
Post #34,997 by a6l6e6x 4/10/02 4:35:45 PM Reply	Re: kill everyone on the other side! That does appear to be the action plan on the Israeli side. Wait until the body counts and pictures of damage done by the Israeli are available. How about a Solomonic decision? Kill all on both sides. Say 60 megaton bombs in a triangular pattern on 30 mile centers on all of Israel and occupied territories. Orient the pattern so there is a direct hit on old Jerusalem. Peace would be assured. Alex "Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
Post #34,999 by inthane-chan 4/10/02 4:43:05 PM Reply	I've always maintained... ...that peace in the Middle East could only be achieved by either a) one group wiping out ALL members of the opposing groups all around the world or b) by turning the Middle East into the largest glass parking lot in the world. I have this weird image 2000 years hence of the Palestinians being given a homeland in Israel against the wishes of it's current occupants... "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #34,953 by screamer 4/10/02 11:04:01 AM Reply	Yes... But not in the near term. The temperature is too hot. The fighting groups are both too self righteous in their "causes" and the world community is impotent to act in the best interest of either party. The solution to this problem will either be an Israel that includes Palestinian Arabs as equal citizens in Israel, it will be an Israel which borders an independent Palestine, or it will be a genocide/expulsion of either party - Israeli jews or Palestinians. This will have to be decided by the two parties involved alone - and it will have to be a political and not religious based decision. This has never been an easy question because this region has historically been contested because of it's geography... and it's religious significance. [link\|http://www.palestinehistory.com/history.htm\| Who are the players?] Because of recent history, specifically the last one hundred years after the Zionist movement... peace has not been anything different than the last 3000 years in history in the region. [link\|http://www.jajz-ed.org.il/100/maps/index.html\| maps of conflicts over the last 100 years] and each side in this matter has legitimate claims to be made as to why they are justified in believing as they do. [link\|http://www.islamzine.com/ideologies/zionism/\|A fairly balanced Islamic perspective site...] Is peace possible? Only when the Palestinians and Israelis determine that it is in thier mutual best interests for survival will they solve this complex issue. As for your "answer" to attaining peace, what does it mean? I could easily substitute the word "war" in your analogy (can't fight on an empty stomach...respect your enemy... secure the perimeter) If you are defining "peace" as the "time between wars" then you are historically accurate. As Ashton is so found of pointing out, homo saps are incapable of sustaining a mutual respect for eachother. Sooner or later their "territorialism gene" kicks in... Peace is just a squishy concept word, like justice and brotherly love... Great for the campfires, but not much practical value in the human existence. YMMV. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #35,056 by brettj 4/10/02 10:26:56 PM Reply	Watch it! I might learn somthin from y'all. (which is exactly what I'm tryin to do) >>>> As for your "answer" to attaining peace, what does it mean? I could easily substitute the word "war" in your analogy (can't fight on an empty stomach...respect your enemy... secure the perimeter) If you are defining "peace" as the "time between wars" then you are historically accurate.<<<< Sorry for the vagueness. This is related to Mazlow's Hierarchy of Needs. You can't reach certain levels of human development without meeting the most basic needs first. You are correct that this condition applies to both obtaining peace and obtaining war. I never really thought of it that way before. Thanks for the input.
Post #35,108 by screamer 4/11/02 11:42:42 AM Reply	Idealism is a good thing... It truly is. I got out of corps America and took a college gig just so that I could work around young (and idealistic) people again. The only reason that I kind of "cynicized" your prescription, is that this particular region of the world is so complex that no boilerplate "solution to the problem" is to be found. I find it defeatist to say "there has never been peace in this region and never will be" and a little naive. In so much as there is ever "peace" anywhere in the world (remember, we in the US have not technically been "at war" with anyone for about 50 years :-) ) there will be a peaceful coexistence in the Holy Land. It's either that or the Revelation is true... Megido is not looking that far fetched this particular week. The key point that I was trying to make is that I doubt that the Palestinians and Israelis will be dancing around the campfire singing Kumbaya anytime soon, no matter what solution is decided upon by the two sides. The concept that the United States or Europe or the Arab nations that seem obsessed with this war can somehow automagically make peace happen is also pretty far fetched. Getting to the level where this is a test for Bush (or Clinton or Bush sr. or Reagan or Carter or Ford or Nixon or Johnson or Kennedy) is just so much Katie Couric hooey... They have all failed miserably... Because it is not a problem that is to be solved by Americans. Currently, we have our own "terrorism" problem. We also have a credibillity problem when saying that Israelis shouldn't expand their territory into the lands of it's indigenous people (remember the Alamo?) The lines that were drawn in '47 were as arbitrary as the ones drawn in '68... An independent Palestinian state could just as easily be drawn into the area currently known as Syria or Jordan... It is possible to attain a level of respect, at least enough to coexist. Watching Perez (Israeli ambassador for many years) on Good Morning America, he said, "you can't choose your parents or your neighbors" are the two truths he knows of in life... Many of the older Jews in Israel remember the Holocaust and do not want to become the Nazis. Cooler heads will prevail. From what I've seen, the Israeli military is trying to ferret out only the terrorists and radical elements. They are not killing Palestinians indiscriminately. It's serious business and they're not handing out balloons and smiles at the checkpoints, but they are dealing with men, women and children who will strap a bomb onto their body and blow it up in the offhand chance they might kill a Jew for Allah... We need to let Israel take care of business and then we need to get down to the business of negotiating a homeland for Palestinians and also making sure the quasi apartheid that exists with the Palestinians who wish to stay in Israel is destroyed. Just my $.02 Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #35,116 by a6l6e6x 4/11/02 12:03:18 PM Reply	Re: They are not killing Palestinians indiscriminately. That would explain the killing of the American woman and wounding of her husband, and the killing of Italian photo journalist last week, and the shooting of the Armenian monk a day or two ago. Hold your opinion until the pictures of the devastation and body counts come out. Alex "Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
Post #35,120 by boxley 4/11/02 12:21:34 PM Reply	Check the Jordan Times Armenian Monk has not been attributed to eithe the Israelis or the PA. Both had snipers in the area at the time. As for the American woman, that is like saying cincinnati police targeted a Nigerian Women during the riots. She is Arab and lives in Palestine. thanx, Bill TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #35,136 by a6l6e6x 4/11/02 1:51:30 PM Reply	I must have missed the passing of the law... that revokes US citizenship of an individual upon the entry of an Israeli bullet into their body. My bad. Perhaps a URL would bring me up to date on this. Are you serious about Palestinian Arab snipers on the outside of the church? They would be dead meat and you know it. [link\|http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/11/international/middleeast/11BETH.html\|NY Times article.] The Israeli policy is "Shoot first and lie about later as needed". Alex "Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
Post #35,148 by boxley 4/11/02 2:32:54 PM Reply	url [link\|http://www.jordantimes.com/Thu/news/news1.htm\|http://www.jordanti...ws/news1.htm] Jordan times not exactly an Israeli Organ, read the last sentence. In Bethlehem, an Armenian priest was shot and seriously wounded in the besieged Church of the Nativity, built on the spot where Christians believe Jesus was born. It was not clear who shot the priest, who has been trapped along with some 50 clergymen and dozens of other people \ufffd some of them armed \ufffd since the invading Israeli forces surrounded the shrine more than a week ago. Palestinian and Israeli snipers have been spotted on nearby rooftops. As far as yer snide quip let us examine what happened in a way that you might understand. An American citizen who was of Ukrainian Decent goes and lives in the Ukraine and is shot by KGB During a riot, the rest of the world hollers YOU CANT SHOOT AMERICANS. KGB replies, HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE! Now how about the Americans the PA is blowing up all over Jerusalem, Oh, they are Jewish Americans, that is ok by me. That is different. A Ghanian moves to New York and lives in Harlem. How is the NYPD supposed to know he is Ghanian and not a 126th St hoodlum? Dont let your anger at Sharon make you blind. thanx, bill TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #35,157 by a6l6e6x 4/11/02 3:26:11 PM Reply	Yeh, "That's funny, she didn't look American.". I'll grant you, you can't tell by looking or that she was targeted because she was an American. But, do you suppose with a 9 month old she was a terrorist deserving to be mowed down? More like acting on orders that say "If it moves, kill it!". The Jordan Times is just parroting an international news agency. Alex "Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
Post #35,263 by a6l6e6x 4/12/02 1:06:09 PM Reply	Israelis fess up on monk. An army spokesman admitted responsibility, but stressed that the monk, who is now in hospital in west Jerusalem, had been dressed in civilian clothes and "looked armed". [link\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1926000/1926332.stm\|Link.] Note that while the link is to "the thoroughly biased and PLO controlled BBC site", the admission was also mentioned in dead tree version of the Charlotte Observer. Alex "Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
Post #35,135 by screamer 4/11/02 1:42:10 PM Reply	I understand your point of view... I also understand that my statement is probably too broad. I also know that Israeli soldiers are human beings and soldiers who might jump the gun and fire at the "wrong" people. The dirty little secret that my brother kept from his days in Nam until one year before he died was "why" his company killed women and children... Because in that particular military action, women and children were just as likely to hand the American GI's a basket with a grenade in it than were the "militants". Think about it. As well, do you think the Palestinian terrorist (who are the reason for this military action) give a fuck about who they take with them? While your doing "body counts" of innocents, while don't you include Israeli women, children, the elderly, foreigners, etc... in your next post. Israel cannot sit around and wait for these psycho fucks to die off by suicide attrition. The Israeli military is doing them a favor really - they're still martyrs, still get the virgins - just quicker and without taking any innocent victims with them to their psychotic paradise... Did it occur to you that if Israel (or the US for that matter), succumbs to the peace process because of suicide terrorist now, what doors this will open for future psycho fucks? We have a problem, let's go raid the mental hospitals and pay their parents $25000 to blow up the Eiffel Tower or the Dome of the Rock... How hypocritical is it for the US to say that 3000+ innocent Americans plus some very expensive real estate is much more important than a few hundred Israelis? There is the history and there is now... The Israelis have a terrorism problem right now. I haven't heard them giving us ultimatums about how we can conduct our military presence in Afghanistan... Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #35,147 by a6l6e6x 4/11/02 2:32:49 PM Reply	Re: "I haven't heard them giving us ultimatums about how we can conduct our military presence in Afghanistan..." That's because, if you paid attention to Osama, WTC happened in large part because of US uncritical and vast support of Israel and it's oppression of the Palestinian Arabs. So, Israel is responsible for us having to go to Afghanistan. Look, terrorism has never worked and does not work now. I don't know what the Palestinian Arabs had to do to lift the occupation of 35 years and get rid of the brutal Israeli oppression but killing innocent Israeli civilians with suicide bombers is not the answer. Likewise, the institutionalized Israeli terrorism against the Palestinian Arabs will not work. Believe me, if the Israelis were not executing their Greater Israel plan and had gone back to their pre-1967 borders, and were subject to the same suicide attacks, I would be supporting Israeli actions today. But also, Israel had an opportunity to have a Marshall Plan for the occupied territories and making friends instead of enemies as well. That was never in the cards. Eternal war, when you have the military might, is apparently just fine to have a Greater Israel. Don't pay attention to the Israeli words, pay attention to their acts! Alex "Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
Post #35,155 by Ashton 4/11/02 3:22:58 PM Reply	Marshall Plan? With what money? (And.. when was our last one? Don't bother to count the 'largesse' of the IMF in the survey). It must be added: lately we/IMF has been backing off hounding the terminally impoverished for.. That Annual Interest Payment, often 40ish% of their paltry 'GNP'. But Way Too Late.. when you are speaking of even enlightened.. Self-interest. 20/20 is always fun. How conveniently do you ignore the one constant, intransigent aim of Israel's local foes: to push all of the Jews into the sea. Period. Could this phrase have been uttered a billion times? - certainly millions. And backed by the unwillingness to accept any yet negotiated offer - as recently as 2 years ago IIRC. (Not that this was by some plebiscite of the 'Palestinians' = an accidental group which congregated through the years - but via the insistence of the nearby Arabs! who have always disowned their ""brothers"".. and left them to rot in Syrian, Jordanian 'camps'.) Arafat - kinda like the way we got Ashcroft/Dubya.. another accident of history. Tell me about his methods of controlling his refugee 'constituents' - and what happens to any one of them who proposes some settlement with Israel. Your posit that Israel unilaterally is The Devil.. convinces about as well as does the Christian prescription for all Christian-caused excesses: The Devil Made Me Do It! Sure She did.. Ashton
Post #35,158 by a6l6e6x 4/11/02 3:28:44 PM Reply	Perhaps some of the US $90 BILLION given to Israel. Alex "Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
Post #35,161 by boxley 4/11/02 4:07:07 PM Reply	With 2/3rds of that amount going to Egypt and the largess being showered on the PA. Oops, that is sitting in swiss bank accounts writing checks for weapons. thanx, bill TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #35,208 by a6l6e6x 4/11/02 8:42:31 PM Reply	And Egypt, having a population > 10 times greater. Alex "Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
Post #35,165 by ChrisR 4/11/02 4:14:14 PM Reply	terrorism is quite effective... ...but it really depends how you define your goals. If you want the opposition to strike back at you in anger and overreact, then it is quite good at generating that effect. Look at it in the current situation. Practically every country in the world is pissed of at Israel at the moment. They instantly forgot about the terrorist actions that were the cause of the current operation - with world attention being about 15 minutes. Now tell me that the suicide bombers have not achieved their objective. The mistake is in assuming that the terrorist has any goal of reducing oppression - at least over a reasonable period of time. Indeed, their main goal is to force the enemy to become more oppressive. In turning up the notch, they attempt to cause others to ignore their culpability, and feign victim status when the enemy attempts to strike back. I'd prefer that they practiced the art as applied by Gandhi - having your enemies strike at you without resorting to force. But alas, that manner seems to be beyond the reach of most people - preferring the instant gratification of violent revenge.
Post #35,181 by Ashton 4/11/02 5:32:58 PM Reply	But Gandhi was that Exceptional person - One who practised the ethical axioms which virtually all others prefer to honor - merely by fighting over.. Which unFollowed Creed is Bigger? (Mine, of course) And we have to remember how difficult that was - in a way he was a constant.. Threatened-'suicide'! [but never 'Bomber'] in order to keep-on keeping the folks eschewing that omnipresent temptation to Get The Bastards! (and enjoy.. that visceral fun a whole lot. Glory and stuff). There were periodic outbreaks of that. Is there even one Gandhi about in the world now? Obviously there is none, among those possessing any power not-to-wield in the usual gratifying way. Gandhi was an adult in a world of adolescents - some spoiled rotten, others inculcated with fantasies about rewards after 'death' and other tomfoolery via which priests/pols manipulate the masses and achieve their own temporal adoration. To my knowledge he never invoked any 'Gods' to bolster his reasoning - certainly never preached about the superiority of Hinduism or (whatever might actually have been his deepest internal beliefs). Few can resist personal advertising - to that degree, it seems. Alas, logic.. let alone reason, has little sway with adrenaline-besotted adolescents: any parents here? Pity there are no homo-sap Parents around -- the fanciful Ones in the Sky appear to have been deaf and certainly dumb - since their invention. I suspect we shall soon witness one Hell of a crapshoot, providing endless infotainment in the Murican Tee Vee dens. What a relief shall we then feel: it ain't happening downtown. Well, not in quite so dramatic a fashion, anyway.. Ashton What's for lunch?
Post #35,225 by Ashton 4/12/02 12:24:06 AM Reply	Forgot a Gandhi quote someone printed up - If we are to reach real peace in this world, and if we are to carry on a real war against war, we shall have to begin with children.
Post #35,139 by Ashton 4/11/02 1:56:02 PM Reply	Disingenuous, perhaps.. Just as Murica has its occasional Lt. Calley, and is not immune to its My Lais - there are bound to be Israelis in uniform who do not obey their orders. You are ever positing a systematic intent of the Israelis to indiscriminately target innocents. I deem this - patently false, thus scurrilous. I doubt that anyone residing 24/7 in Murica can fully appreciate the effect of daily living in an environment where.. any person nearby (man woman or child) might.. decide to detonate him/herself "for God" or any other cockamamie form of homo-sap ugly fantasy. I am unaware of a single Israeli doing likewise in some Arab locale; there is a one-sidedness to this phenomenon. I am surprised that, thus far.. only a handful of Israelis have freaked out and Gone Postal Murican Style\ufffd. Unfortunately.. I see no magic Rx anywhere. So long as organized Religious Corporations continue to inculcate each one's Unique Righteousness.. and legions of accepting sheep pass-on this malady - how could clashes between any Two One True Ways produce any different result? As to "God" promising territorial 'lot-line adjustments' for Chosen, unChosen or other kinds of 'people' - what can one say to such inanity as justification for clan wars across millennia? Juvenile Shit, 100% Pure. Ashton It's the Economy! ^h^h^h... Immaturity of the Species! Stupid.. (motto for ceasing the madness, followed by - mea culpa y'all)
Post #34,965 by marlowe 4/10/02 12:23:03 PM Reply	Oh, give it a rest. We all know by now what a load of crap that social justice talk is. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes. If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
Post #34,987 by Ashton 4/10/02 3:07:33 PM Reply	Ah.. the irony of___ unheeded self-advice. We all know what a load of crap those jingoist slogans are.
Post #35,079 by 3) 4/11/02 1:48:09 AM Reply	Well, I never thought peace in Central America was possible Just to mention one of many stranger things that have happened. (By the way - if Nicaraguans had done 9/11, I'd say we had it coming. We didn't.) What happened in CA was that the money stopped flowing because the USSR stopped supplying one side and we stopped supplying the other, and suddenly war wasn't profitable anymore. And that's despite a history that makes the Middle East look like an amiable chess match. Russia and the US are no longer at war, because one side ran out of money. The basic situation, as I see it, is that the Palestineans are convenient pawns (well, not quite pawns, if they were pawns they would be more valued and have more influence on their own destiny) for the Arabs. Without the Arabs backing them while refusing to accept them, they would have accepted one of the many Israeli offers, and enough of them would have moved on to allow Israel to bring the rest in without becoming a minority. As the Salvedoreans and Soviets discovered, bombs are not cheap. Real refugees don't fight prolonged wars, they can't afford the expense. I am not a man, I am a free number.
Post #35,087 by wharris2 4/11/02 6:45:07 AM Reply	Amiable chess match? C'mon, the hatred between Palestine arabs and the israeli jews is far beyond any hatred or conflict between pro-or-con governments in Central America. You never saw suicide bombings in Central America (at least I didn't); it seemed to be (for want of a better term) "ordinary" warfare. Atrocities on either side, yes, but on the order of suicide bombing? No. Famous last RPG quotes: "I'll just shoot this fireball down the dungeon passageway..."
Post #35,118 by 3) 4/11/02 12:11:06 PM Reply	Well, different No, suicide attacks weren't common in CA, but you don't, on the other hand, see a lot of torture in the ME and there isn't, as far as I know, an accepted language of mutilation and method of killing. The CA situation, although it wasn't well reported in the civilized world, had racial and religious elements that went back several centuries, besides the political and economic issues. Frankly, I don't see the suicide bombings as all that good an indication of depth of hatred. I think it is more a matter of tactics. In every war, there are people willing to die for the mission. Most of the time, their commanders would rather have them available for the next mission. I am not a man, I am a free number.
Post #35,123 by marlowe 4/11/02 12:46:20 PM Reply	Just a matter of tactics? You can't have tactics, in the sense that you speak of tactics, without pawns. And you can't use pawns if they won't do what you want. If the Palestinians didn't have such an insane hatred that they'd be willing to kill themsleves for the privilege of killing others, then this particular tactic wouldn't be an option. This isn't chess. Not all pawns are equal. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes. If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
Post #35,197 by 3) 4/11/02 7:27:50 PM Reply	Not saying it isn't fueled by insane hatred Just that I don't accept the premise that suicide bombing demonstrates an exceptional level of insane hatred. Insane hatred is in pretty good supply, and I'm saying that it usualy doesn't result in suicide bombing for mostly tactical reasons. Plenty of the combatants in the CA wars (for example) went into situations where the odds of survival were far lower than the average suicide attempt. Partly, I'm denying the bombers the respect that you give them: I say that they have not demonstrated exceptional depth of passion. I am not a man, I am a free number.
Post #35,199 by Ashton 4/11/02 7:45:07 PM Reply	Fruitful angle.. In many ways there is absence of 'passion' - it's a mercantile contract by the time of pressing the button: You do this / You get the virgins and your pic on local Tee Vee. Parents get the $25K. Similarly.. a drug-induced euphoria may be more akin to the pre-button state (mentioned a few times by ex-wannabe bombers who fizzled). Passion however, requires that one is in possession of faculties (!) aware of the odds, afraid.. yet willing to act. That I believe is what we usually call 'bravery'. Hell.. Every fanatic has that tired old courageofhisconvictions. Yawn
Post #35,117 by a6l6e6x 4/11/02 12:06:12 PM Reply	Re: money flow. The US has given Israel 90 BILLION dollars over the years. Way past time to stop that flow. Alex "Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)

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