So the report by Lewis H Steiner.

The site you're using has been shown to be publishing incorrect information. They are not trustworthy.

The Civil War started 150 years ago. It is well-documented and well studied. Some obscure web site is not more credible than actual historians who have dedicated their professional lives to studying the topic.

http://thelede.blogs...ederate-soldiers/

As Kevin Sieff reported in The Washington Post on Wednesday, historians are wondering how a fourth-grade textbook in Virginia was approved despite including the spurious claim that ÂThousands of Southern blacks fought in the Confederate ranks, including two black battalions under the command of Stonewall Jackson.Â

Asked about her sources, the textbookÂs author, Joy Masoff Â whose other books include ÂFire!Â and ÂOh Yikes! HistoryÂs Grossest, Wackiest MomentsÂ Â cited Ervin Jordan, a University of Virginia historian who is the author of ÂBlack Confederates and Afro-Yankees in Civil War Virginia.Â

Like other noted historians, Mr. Jordan told The Post that while there is documentary evidence that some African-Americans fought for the Confederacy, ÂThereÂs no way of knowing that there were thousandsÂ. And the claim about Jackson is totally false.Â

Why do you go in for these ridiculous fabrications pushed by fringes of the right wing in this country?

Cheers,
Scott.

The word "negroes" appears twice in that book, "negro" once. If they were major characters in the story, one would think they'd get more than an off-hand mention.

The book reads like a novel to me, with its omnipotent narrator. It doesn't read like a true eyewitness account. He's not a dispassionate narrator, either, in my reading of the first 20 pages.

http://theaporetic.com/?p=651

[...]

Even though General Lee in January 1865 requested that the CSA Congress enlist slaves, they still resisted the idea. Howell Cobb of Georgia in January of 1865 called the use of negroes as soldiers Âthe most pernicious idea that has been suggested since the war began,Â continuing, Âyou cannot make soldiers of slaves or slaves of soldiers.Â The day you make soldiers of them is the beginning of the revolution. If slaves will make good soldiers, our whole theory of slavery is wrong.Â3

So even in November of 1864, when the rebel army was starving, and in desperate straits, the CSA congress still opposed enlisting slaves, and it was not legal to do so until March of 1865.

So where does the claim of black Confederate soldiers come from?

Well, when Richmond fell the Union Army did find some partial companies of slaves who were training as soldiersÂthe exact number is unclear, 200 at most, says David Blight.4

The single biggest source for this, though, is very startling and worth looking at. Northern Dr. Lewis H. Steiner witnessed the Confederate capture of Frederick, MD in 1862. Steiner wrote ÂOver 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number [of Confederate troops]. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc.Â.and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army.Â5

People who want to believe that loyal slaves fought for the Confederacy take this very strong account, and assume that it represents the average number of black soldiers in the Confederate Army, and conclude that as many as 50,000 black men fought for the confederacy! 6

There are all sorts of problems with this. A: was Steiner right about the number? B: was he right that he saw soldiers, and not slaves in support units? C: can you extrapolate what he saw to apply to the rest of the Confederate Army D: what was SteinerÂs agenda?

SteinerÂs account, which can be read on Google Books, is worth examining. Steiner was a partisan: a dedicated Yankee, his account of the Confederate Army is clearly designed to ridicule and belittle. He mocks the CSA soldiers for being dirty and ill smelling. He writes, of the black soldiers: ÂThe fact was patent, and rather interesting when considered in connection with the horror rebels express at the suggestion of black soldiers being employed for the National defence.Â Was he reporting an accurate number, or trying to mock the CSA and its Army? ItÂs also worth noting that SteinerÂs account describes Howell Cobb, quoted above, as marching into Frederick with this column of 3000 black troopsÂthe same Howell Cobb who would write, less than three years later: Âyou cannot make soldiers of slaves or slaves of soldiers.Â The day you make soldiers of them is the beginning of the revolution. If slaves will make good soldiers, our whole theory of slavery is wrong.Â Can Steiner be right?

Meanwhile, none of the other accounts from the occupation of Frederick support this observation. None of the confederate soldiers who were at Fredrick write about black Confederate soldiersÂin fact, as Chandra Manning points out, white CSA soldiers were for the most part strongly opposed to using slaves in the Army. And again, thereÂs the fact that the govt. of the CSA forbid the enlistment of slaves in 1862, when Frederick fell.

There are no accounts from natives of Frederick of describing 3000 armed black men in town. There are very few accounts from northern soldiers of black troops in arms for the CSA. And keep in mind Civil War battles were heavily covered by reporters. Frederick is not far from Washington. There are no contemporary accounts from reporters of large numbers of armed black soldiers in the CSA.

So we have a case of one sourceÂSteinerÂbeing taken as gospel and then enlarged to the point where it has turned into 50,ooo black soldiers, approximately 1/3 the total CSA Army in 1865.

ItÂs a case of wish fulfillment. People want to believe in black Confederates, and they reuse to let historical evidence stand in their way. ItÂs possible some black men fought for the confederacy: itÂs a big country, there are a lot of people in it with a lot of motives. ItÂs very likely some slaves and possibly free blacks served in support positions and as servants. Nostalgia, after the war, might remember that service as soldiering. To turn it into a large scale phenomenon of black men fighting for the Confederacy, you have to ignore the facts.

Emphasis added.

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #347,293 by boxley 9/3/11 5:25:56 PM Reply	So the report by Lewis H Steiner. Diary kept during the rebel occupation of Frederick Maryland in the fall of 1862. Published as a representative of the Federal (union) side in an official capacity and published in 1863 is trumped by some yankee Kevin Levine, who is representing another yankee also named Levine, who was complaining about being misquoted? I think you need to find another source. Preferably drawn from the historical record. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
Post #347,294 by Another Scott 9/3/11 5:44:31 PM Reply	Occam's Razor. The site you're using has been shown to be publishing incorrect information. They are not trustworthy. The Civil War started 150 years ago. It is well-documented and well studied. Some obscure web site is not more credible than actual historians who have dedicated their professional lives to studying the topic. http://thelede.blogs...ederate-soldiers/ As Kevin Sieff reported in The Washington Post on Wednesday, historians are wondering how a fourth-grade textbook in Virginia was approved despite including the spurious claim that ÂThousands of Southern blacks fought in the Confederate ranks, including two black battalions under the command of Stonewall Jackson.Â Asked about her sources, the textbookÂs author, Joy Masoff Â whose other books include ÂFire!Â and ÂOh Yikes! HistoryÂs Grossest, Wackiest MomentsÂ Â cited Ervin Jordan, a University of Virginia historian who is the author of ÂBlack Confederates and Afro-Yankees in Civil War Virginia.Â Like other noted historians, Mr. Jordan told The Post that while there is documentary evidence that some African-Americans fought for the Confederacy, ÂThereÂs no way of knowing that there were thousandsÂ. And the claim about Jackson is totally false.Â Why do you go in for these ridiculous fabrications pushed by fringes of the right wing in this country? Cheers, Scott.
Post #347,298 by crazy 9/3/11 6:35:58 PM Reply	Ahh, the laugh test C'mon 'nother, you can't point that out to box. That's cheating.
Post #347,307 by boxley 9/3/11 8:46:27 PM Reply	FFS are you claiming that the description on page 19 of the book published in 1863 is a lie? Explain why it is a lie, and being used as a reference by a site you dont like 148 years later is not a valid reason Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
Post #347,311 by Another Scott 9/3/11 9:09:18 PM Reply	Ok... The word "negroes" appears twice in that book, "negro" once. If they were major characters in the story, one would think they'd get more than an off-hand mention. The book reads like a novel to me, with its omnipotent narrator. It doesn't read like a true eyewitness account. He's not a dispassionate narrator, either, in my reading of the first 20 pages. http://theaporetic.com/?p=651 [...] Even though General Lee in January 1865 requested that the CSA Congress enlist slaves, they still resisted the idea. Howell Cobb of Georgia in January of 1865 called the use of negroes as soldiers Âthe most pernicious idea that has been suggested since the war began,Â continuing, Âyou cannot make soldiers of slaves or slaves of soldiers.Â The day you make soldiers of them is the beginning of the revolution. If slaves will make good soldiers, our whole theory of slavery is wrong.Â3 So even in November of 1864, when the rebel army was starving, and in desperate straits, the CSA congress still opposed enlisting slaves, and it was not legal to do so until March of 1865. So where does the claim of black Confederate soldiers come from? Well, when Richmond fell the Union Army did find some partial companies of slaves who were training as soldiersÂthe exact number is unclear, 200 at most, says David Blight.4 The single biggest source for this, though, is very startling and worth looking at. Northern Dr. Lewis H. Steiner witnessed the Confederate capture of Frederick, MD in 1862. Steiner wrote ÂOver 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number [of Confederate troops]. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc.Â.and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army.Â5 People who want to believe that loyal slaves fought for the Confederacy take this very strong account, and assume that it represents the average number of black soldiers in the Confederate Army, and conclude that as many as 50,000 black men fought for the confederacy! 6 There are all sorts of problems with this. A: was Steiner right about the number? B: was he right that he saw soldiers, and not slaves in support units? C: can you extrapolate what he saw to apply to the rest of the Confederate Army D: what was SteinerÂs agenda? SteinerÂs account, which can be read on Google Books, is worth examining. Steiner was a partisan: a dedicated Yankee, his account of the Confederate Army is clearly designed to ridicule and belittle. He mocks the CSA soldiers for being dirty and ill smelling. He writes, of the black soldiers: ÂThe fact was patent, and rather interesting when considered in connection with the horror rebels express at the suggestion of black soldiers being employed for the National defence.Â Was he reporting an accurate number, or trying to mock the CSA and its Army? ItÂs also worth noting that SteinerÂs account describes Howell Cobb, quoted above, as marching into Frederick with this column of 3000 black troopsÂthe same Howell Cobb who would write, less than three years later: Âyou cannot make soldiers of slaves or slaves of soldiers.Â The day you make soldiers of them is the beginning of the revolution. If slaves will make good soldiers, our whole theory of slavery is wrong.Â Can Steiner be right? Meanwhile, none of the other accounts from the occupation of Frederick support this observation. None of the confederate soldiers who were at Fredrick write about black Confederate soldiersÂin fact, as Chandra Manning points out, white CSA soldiers were for the most part strongly opposed to using slaves in the Army. And again, thereÂs the fact that the govt. of the CSA forbid the enlistment of slaves in 1862, when Frederick fell. There are no accounts from natives of Frederick of describing 3000 armed black men in town. There are very few accounts from northern soldiers of black troops in arms for the CSA. And keep in mind Civil War battles were heavily covered by reporters. Frederick is not far from Washington. There are no contemporary accounts from reporters of large numbers of armed black soldiers in the CSA. So we have a case of one sourceÂSteinerÂbeing taken as gospel and then enlarged to the point where it has turned into 50,ooo black soldiers, approximately 1/3 the total CSA Army in 1865. ItÂs a case of wish fulfillment. People want to believe in black Confederates, and they reuse to let historical evidence stand in their way. ItÂs possible some black men fought for the confederacy: itÂs a big country, there are a lot of people in it with a lot of motives. ItÂs very likely some slaves and possibly free blacks served in support positions and as servants. Nostalgia, after the war, might remember that service as soldiering. To turn it into a large scale phenomenon of black men fighting for the Confederacy, you have to ignore the facts. Emphasis added. HTH. Cheers, Scott.

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