First reports from flight recorders.

Post #343,085 by Another Scott 5/27/11 12:08:55 PM Reply	First reports from flight recorders. http://english.aljaz...271416196601.html An Air France jet that crashed into the Atlantic Ocean two years ago stalled three times before plunging into the sea, killing all 228 people on board, information from the plane's flight recorders shows. French investigators said on Friday that data from the devices, known as black boxes, revealed the final minutes of the air disaster, with two co-pilots struggling to regain control of the Airbus jet. The emergency began with a stall warning two and a half hours into flight 447 between Rio de Janeiro and Paris on June 1 2009. The captain was on a routine break at the time and was summoned back to the cockpit by the second and third in command, but did not retake the controls. The co-pilots wrestled with the plane's controls for three and a half minutes as it descended rapidly, falling 3,350 metres per minute, rolling from left to right and finally plunging into the Atlantic. "There was an inconsistency between the speeds displayed on the left side and the integrated standby instrument system (ISIS), the French Bureau of Inquiry and Analysis (BEA), said. "This lasted for less than one minute". However the investigators said it is still too early to give the causes of the crash, and a full report is expected to be released this summer. [...] :-( A little more at the link. I suspect Ask The Pilot at Salon and Fallows at the Atlantic will have some comments in the near future. Cheers, Scott.
Post #343,104 by S1mon_Jester 5/27/11 5:37:00 PM Reply	that sounds a lot like pitot tubes freezing up. I'm wondering if they dropped the nose (to regain airspeed), and exceed Vne.
Post #343,170 by mmoffitt 5/31/11 10:22:32 AM Reply	Not likely. From what I've read the aircraft was largely in tact when it hit the ocean. I'd expect greater structural damage prior to impact if they'd exceeded Vne. Especially when one considers how fragile those plastic airplanes from Europe are. Remember this? The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this ACC as follows: the in-flight separation of the vertical stabilizer as a result of the loads beyond ultimate design that were created by the first officer's unnecessary and excessive rudder pedal inputs. Contributing to these rudder pedal inputs were characteristics of the Airbus A300-600 rudder system design and elements of the American Airlines Advanced Aircraft Maneuvering Program. http://www.ntsb.gov/...11130X02321&key=1 Since this is a fly-by-wire a/c, it's pretty interesting how the pilot was able to apply "unnecessary and excessive rudder pedal inputs" while flying well below Va. If these Eurotrash a/c can't handle a little wake turbulence, I doubt very seriously they'd stay together at Vne. ---- bcnu, Mikem
Post #343,177 by S1mon_Jester 5/31/11 11:49:28 AM Reply	Did some searching and that thing was dropping like a rock. Something like 10,000 ft a minute. I had not realized that they flew INTO a thunderstorm. http://www.theatlant...-tells-us/239598/
Post #343,179 by Another Scott 5/31/11 12:00:03 PM Reply	Yup. ~ 120 mph down. AKA "terminal velocity" :-( If one knows the numbers for mass, appropriate cross-sectional area, once can calculate the terminal velocity here - http://www.grc.nasa....rplane/termv.html 150 ft/sec = 100 mph. Cheers, Scott.
Post #343,180 by mmoffitt 5/31/11 1:27:06 PM Reply	One possible nit. With the airbus' FBW [fly by wire] system and passive stick, the crew would have none of the force or buffet cues through the side-stick that might have told them this. I am very far from an ATP and I know next to nothing about Airbus control systems. But, after about 9 years of hangar flying with some ATP's, it's my understanding that even fly-by-wire a/c have "shakers" in the control yokes. These are designed so that the pilot gets a physical cue that a stall is imminent. Maybe it malfunctioned or is not part of the Airbus design (if not, that, in and of itself, would be alarming). This is very dangerous flying, I don't care who you are. In IMC, you're taught to "trust your instruments" because, well, that's the only thing that's going to tell you if you're upside down or not. It's a hell of a thing to be in hard IMC and not be able to rely on your instruments.

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