Re: Check my point.

Post #33,715 by Arkadiy 3/28/02 12:40:10 PM Reply	Re: Check my point. >>>>>>>>>> If you toed the line, you lived without any problems. I only have the reports from the USSR and my experience in East Berlin to go from. You had black market meat? You stepped over the line. <<<<<<<<<< You have no idea how mad you make me. Did you hear what I said at all? People in Leningrad and Moscow would have no meat if they "toed the line". People outside that blessed region would simply starve. Everybody who managed to live had to be guilty. The whole economic system was based on people breaking law or policy. There was no other way to get anything done. By trying to portray US as getting close to USSR you are doing a disservice to your own cause. People may end up thinking: "Well, if it was just a little bit different in USSR, and they did have security - may be it was not such a bad idea after all?" YOu better keep reminding them what they have here, and how little they have lost so far compared to what they have to lose.Yes, fight for every little bit, but do not pretend that you almost lost it all.
Post #33,738 by Ashton 3/28/02 1:52:33 PM Reply	I do see that point. And you are among two (three?) here who have direct experience - which the rest of us lack entirely. Yes, from that angle.. it ISN'T "BAD" here, nor anywhere near-to what you have described. What I think that no one can predict is: how slippery that slope? There are numerous modern instances around the world of revolutionary-change occurring virtually overnight, as a new regime seizes power. The necessity of daily lying in the service of this or that Corporation: prepares us for the kinds of daily 'lying' you describe. We rarely expect to be told anything without large or extra-large spin attached. This is mind conditioning, if there ever were such a thing. As to the major differences between US and 'those others' - for our being the most intricately structured society ever, with interdependencies of mind-boggling complexity (think only if.. trucks could not roll every day?): so are we most vulnerable to all those 'unanticipated consequences' of any truly chaotic development. THEN.. would come the, "we must have lawn'order now at any price" lest cities starve etc. Surely Moscow, Leningrad were a microcosm of how such a catastrophe manifests.. (And yes, I'm somewhat acquainted with the Leningrad siege. That was during war, of course). There's always a danger of exaggeration of perils; still, the ovine acceptance we have seen of the precursors of "tightening up" are, I think - no cause for great optimism either. We cannot know how much further rationing of civil rights would result in (finally) a bunch of 2x4's upside the head of the major offending pols - but thus far, there appears to have been only grumbling among the few. It is the easy acceptance of the ludicrous acronyms like {ugh} the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. bill, and the evident agenda of others all here know about (DMCA etc.) - acceptance of what amounts to further consolidation of Corporate governance via outright purchase of writing their own windfalls: this is what I believe signals the complaisance of the US 'Consumer' to date. Erwache! was on every Nazi guidon flag in those massive processions all have seen: "Awaken". Of course the Nazis meant something quite different.. but the principle holds. Ashton
Post #33,742 by Brandioch 3/28/02 2:08:36 PM Reply	An effective system vs an ineffective system. You have no idea how mad you make me. Did you hear what I said at all? People in Leningrad and Moscow would have no meat if they "toed the line". That's the fact. And I recall Boris getting pissed that his own mother couldn't get medicines that she needed. Even though such were readily available here. People outside that blessed region would simply starve. Everybody who managed to live had to be guilty. The whole economic system was based on people breaking law or policy. There was no other way to get anything done. Well, you were there. But I do find it fascinating that the black market could feed so many people who would have otherwise starved. Just the logistics alone are impressive. People may end up thinking: "Well, if it was just a little bit different in USSR, and they did have security - may be it was not such a bad idea after all?" Yep. There are people who are that stupid. YOu better keep reminding them what they have here, and how little they have lost so far compared to what they have to lose.Yes, fight for every little bit, but do not pretend that you almost lost it all. I don't think I've ever said that they've lost it all. -BUT- We now have LEGALLY detained hundreds (thousands?) of individuals WITHOUT allowing them the basics guaranteed by our laws. No one (outside of the government) knows how many there are or who they are. In Russia, it took a revolution to put the "Communists" into power. Here, you're witnessing a decline from a free state to a totalitarian state. One step at a time.
Post #33,748 by a6l6e6x 3/28/02 2:31:26 PM Reply	Good comment, Arkadiy! From what my father told me, in the 1930's parents had to be careful what they said in front of their children at home. The "little heroes" would get their parents arrested and shipped off to Siberia. Alex "Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)

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