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New So, what did bring the Roman Empire down, anyway?
http://delong.typepa...w-york-times.html

[...]

Indeed. Especially since Friedman's quote from Lewis Mumford, "[e]veryone aimed at security: no one accepted responsibility..." is a libel against the late Romans, many of the best of whom eschewed personal security and willingly accepted mighty and crushing responsibilities for trying to preserve the empire. You would be hard-put indeed to find any evidence at all that the generations of Stilicho, Aetius, Theodosius, Justinian, and Belisarius were any less public-spirited or brave or far-sighted or responsibility-accepting than the generations of Cicero, Caesar, Augustus, and Tiberius.

I would say that ultimately two things brought down the empire. The first was the repeated heresy-hunt by emperors and patriarchs against fellow Christians--the heresy-hunts against Arians and Monophysites and others so that, when enemies like the successors of Mohammed showed up, nobody in Egypt or Syria wanted to fight to remain in the empire so that they could get persecuted again. The religious tolerance practiced by expanding Islam was a major string to their bow.

The second is related to Goldsworthy's musings on the opening-up of the contest for power, but not quite the same. Goldsworthy says that up until 200 or so you had to be a senator to be a field army commander, and so only senators could make a grab for the empire by gaining the loyalty of their field army. Goldsworthy further says that after 200 emperors thought that if they kept senators from army command then they wouldn't have to worry about frontier generals making a bid for power--for who in Rome would agree to be ruled by some upstart whose ancestors had never been a senator? And Goldsworthy says that was a big mistake: it multiplied potential contenders for power and the damage done by civil wars rather than reducing them.

I think it is more complicated than that: after all the empire, even in the west, held on for more than 200 years after the purging of the senatorial class from army command.

What appears to have killed it in the end was the rise of a set of military politicians who were both Roman generals--hence able to get segments of the Roman army to follow them and know how to use the Roman logistical infrastructure to support their troops--and barbarian war chiefs whose warriors would follow them for "ethnic" and "ethnogenesis" reasons as well. Such leaders turned out to have a big advantage in the fifth century as they combined two sources of power. And in the end some of them decided that they would rather try to be secure as barbarian king of a region carved out of the empire rather than aiming for imperial dominance. Flavius Stilicho, the Vandal. Flavius Aetius, not a Hun but somebody who had been raised among the Huns and had carte blanche to raise Hunnish armies--when he was not fighting Attila, that is. Alaric, King of the Visigoths and also Magister Militum per Illyricum. Theodoric the Amal, King of the Ostrogoths and also Magister Militium per Italiam. That was a change made possible by the (centuries before) purging of the Roman senatorial class from army command. But it was not the same thing.


Interesting stuff.

Cheers,
Scott.
New hmmm, no mention of lead poisoning
http://www.nytimes.c...ad-poisoning.html buncha retards trying to run an empire.. no WAIT!
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
New I remember that.
Unpersuasive, if you ask me.

http://penelope.uchi...eadpoisoning.html

FWIW. :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New I pretty sure it didn't help.
New Hmm.. pretty evident that DeLong is quite further-along than
your avge. Economist (esp. the ones who picked ez-biz courses over all that bother of rigor.)
I wonder why he calls self an Economist, when apparently he has quite better literacy chops?

And in perfect confluence with Jon Stewart's comments with Terry Gross, today ... arises his first Q:
Why oh why can't we have a better press corps?

As to prime Causes, though ...
Methinks that the quarter less-heard-from (or in any-event: whose daily POVs were hardly-ever covered over the decades by bevies of mini-cam-toting Scribes) are
-- as in the US in 2010 --
the non-Represented daily laborers and other workers who actually did productive things / not the bureaucrats' version.

But then.. I haven't read this one (either.)
http://www.amazon.co...ure/dp/1426401140
So much to grok ... too much unsorted data to filter, so I'll punt on Mr. D-L's take.


New He does seem to be a Renaissance Man.
http://delong.posterous.com/

Every weekend he posts "live blog" excerpts from diaries/memoirs of famous characters in WWII.

He keeps busy. :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New What does Mohammed have to do with it?
He was born 100 years after Odoacer deposed Romulus, the event that usually considered the official fall of the (Western) Roman Empire. Perhaps he's conflating it with the fall of the Eastern Empire (Aka: Byzantium) which did happen quite a bit later.
New Good catch. Discussion of that, and more, in the comments.
     So, what did bring the Roman Empire down, anyway? - (Another Scott) - (7)
         hmmm, no mention of lead poisoning - (boxley) - (2)
             I remember that. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                 I pretty sure it didn't help. -NT - (folkert)
         Hmm.. pretty evident that DeLong is quite further-along than - (Ashton) - (1)
             He does seem to be a Renaissance Man. - (Another Scott)
         What does Mohammed have to do with it? - (altmann) - (1)
             Good catch. Discussion of that, and more, in the comments. -NT - (Another Scott)

Most of our entire ruling junta.
43 ms