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New Buy a Dell, send American jobs to India
Texas Business
Compiled from staff and wire reports

Wednesday, March 20, 2002


Dell will increase investments in India

With no signs that pressure on profit margins in the computer industry is letting up, Michael Dell said his company will continue to invest in India and possibly move additional jobs there.

Dell visited his company's call center in Bangalore, India, on Tuesday and said the company will increase its investment there as well as looking at whether it would be useful to "move other back-office functions to Bangalore," The Associated Press reported.

Dell is reviewing some duties that it outsources to contractors, such as payroll, and whether it might save money by bringing those operations back inside the company and moving them to lower-cost regions, said Dell spokesman Mike Maher.

Typically, back-office functions also include billing, payroll and human resources. Dell, which cut 5,700 jobs locally in 2001, has said for more than a year that most of its future growth would not be in Central Texas, where it employs about 16,000 workers.

Dell President Kevin Rollins said earlier this week that the company's use of less expensive foreign markets is a way to handle future growth, rather than an effort to move operations from the United States overseas.

Dell opened a call center in the high-tech hub of Bangalore last year to serve customers in the United States, Europe and the Asia-Pacific. Dell also has software developed in India for bundling in the company's computers and for internal use.

"India seems to be increasingly popular for call centers either for support or sales," said David Bailey, an analyst with Gerard, Klauer, Mattison. "The other huge thing is typically programming, but I'd say that's a less likely option. Dell doesn't do a lot of programming services. I'd guess it's probably expansion of the existing call center."

Dell's Bangalore call center now employs about 800 people. Indian newspapers say original plans called for the center to have as many as 2,000 employees within 18 months.

-- Jonh Pletz

lincoln
"Four score and seven years ago, I had a better sig"
New Look at it this way
The West spent 400ish years shafting what is now the Developing World, in the days of empire.

They're only getting their own back.

The problem with the global marketplace is that there's always someone cheaper.


Peter
Shill For Hire
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
New Such is the way with cheap commodities
Once something is old hat, we have it made overseas more cheaply, by people who are grateful to have a job at all. And we ourselves move on to more advanced stuff. Let's face it, the PC is no longer all that high tech.

And get real, Peter. The Brits and the Portuguese and all were perfectly right to free those people from their Moghul overlords and try to give them some western values. And railroads, too.


[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
New Oh god. Never plan on buying a Dell with support
Dell's Bangalore call center now employs about 800 people. Indian newspapers say original plans called for the center to have as many as 2,000 employees within 18 months.

I predict their major-magazine support rankings (PC World, PC Magazine, PC This-or-That) will plummet to near zero in the next six months.

You can outsource coding in some areas. You can outsource manufacturing (well, actually, they have) in many areas. Support?

"Heo, (indecipherable) is Rashi, how seems they probe?"

That's not a cheap commodity, unless they can get good people over there, speaking so that a normal American consumer can understand them, who understand the product, it's a damn stupid PHB brain-dead choice.

[edit, last paragraph added]
"I didn't know you could drive to Europe." -- An eavesdropper, piping in when he overheard a conversation about someone who had driven to Montreal.
Expand Edited by wharris2 March 20, 2002, 06:47:38 PM EST
New They make more effort than you, it seems.
Outsourcing of support to India isn't that new or that uncommon.

Have a read of [link|http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,448955,00.html|this]. It's related to British customers, but I'm guessing there will be people doing to same for US customers. These folks are putting in a hell of a lot of effort to learn about the culture of another country. I doubt you're so insular you wouldn't spend a minute adjusting to a new accent.

New Just play pretend for a second.
I'm a Christmas recipient of a nice, new Dell computer that doesn't work.

Now, if this outsource firm (wherever it is, India, China, Mexico) speaks excellent english (even excellent British english, or even excellent Australian english) and is able to answer my questions intelligably and is able to get my problem resolved, that's just peachy.

I ask you, what are the chances?

I've spoken with professional programmers from India and these programmers are mostly unintelligible to me. I've written about that before. Perhaps that's me, with lack of practise. Perhaps that's my 50% hearing loss. Perhaps it's something in my brain. But that's certainly not normal helpline conditions.

Beyond that, there is the ability to provide professional support, which (having been on a help desk at one time) is not an easy thing to do.

Hell, I just tried to talk to a LensCrafters receptionist in Ohio and couldn't understand half the words she was saying.

You've GOT to be kidding. Technical helpdesk support from India?
"I didn't know you could drive to Europe." -- An eavesdropper, piping in when he overheard a conversation about someone who had driven to Montreal.
New Every day at work I manage to converse
perfectly well with an Indian gentleman who sits at the desk in front of mine.

I don't mean to induce shock or surprise, but I've even managed to communicate with him over the phone.

Sit down, because this may induce dizziness.

We even discuss technical issues. Successfully.

How different would it be if he phoned me from India? A few milliseconds different, that's about it.

Technical helpdesk support from India? Absolutely. Get over it.

On and on and on and on,
and on and on and on goes John.
New Ya know what?
I live in an area with a high percentage of Indian immigrants.

I talk to multiple different individuals every day.

News Flash! It can be very difficult to understand the OFTEN heavily accented English that most of these immigrants USUALLY (not always) use here. I very often have to ask for them to repeat themselves.

It would be a nightmare if *most* of these individuals got into helpdesk positions. Disaster for them, who wouldn't be able to resolve problems efficiently due to communication problems, disaster for the company they would represent, and disaster for the customer seeking support.

Now. Call me a racist for acknowledging facts. Poor English can be very detrimental sometimes, and my experience points out the FACT that most Indian immigrants (with the caveat: at least here in Edison & Iselin) are not particularly fluent in English.

I cannot think that this would be better 'from India' - unless the firm were to restrict employess to those fluent in English. I don't think it's that common; if it is, then there is a gigantic statistical slew, here.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
New This is *not* new.
Debt collectors, polling firms, hundreds of retail customer service agencies. All with outsourcing to India. Been going on for at least 5 years. Saw a news show on this and they stressed the pronounciation classes that the agents had to pass before taking any calls.

With this much manure around, there must be a pony somewhere.
New Re: Ya know what?
Ya know what's worse?

It's hard to understand the often heavily accented English that Southern *Americans* speak.

Y'all sound like Boomhauer (sp?) from "King Of The Hill".

Yeah, stereotypes. Ain't they grand?


Peter
Shill For Hire
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
New And elsewhere . .
One place I worked many years ago employed a Scot. Don't remember his name (everyone called him "Scotty"). He generally had to repeat even simple sentences two or three times for comprehension. He told me, though, that wasn't the most painful part - that was calling home and having the folks say, "What's wrong with you? You talk like a damned Yank!".
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New And it's even harder to understand many from England
New But the Lancastrians are worth the effort.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
New I agree.
And a nastier indictment of English Language education in the US would be difficult to find...

Oh, wait. Ebonics.

*bonk self*

And - as far as stereotypes, there are Indian immigrants here I have no problem communicating with. It's just that most of the immigrants that I encounter (roughly 1/4 the population in this area, BTW) are difficult to understand. I guess that must be wrong, and the majority speak with crystal clarity and in fluent English, because it's a stereotype, right?

My skepticism comes from experience here, but I guess that most who speak fluent and easy-to-understand English must stay in India, rather than emigrate to English speaking countries (or at least to this part of NJ! *grin*). THAT rationale might preserve political correctness, and make Indians ideal help-desk-fodder.

Now, India is a huge country; there are probably a large number there with the English skills to pull off hellpdesk duty for English speakers... so such an enterprise as outlined in the article might work fine - until it becomes common (rather than simply accepted) practice. In the 'States, helpdesk is often the lowest of low-budget concerns - it's a cost center rather than a profit center, and therefore the among the first budgets to be cut in any enterprise. How long, do you suppose, would US companies using such an outsourcing technique insist on clear-speaking/fluent-in-English employees? After all, with a skill in demand, the more fluent would cost more to employ, no?

(sorry Peter - on reading this over, it's got a harsher tone than I intended... I should probably refrain from posting after a 2 hour commute)

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Expand Edited by imric March 21, 2002, 08:12:10 PM EST
New I'm not saying there aren't.
What I am saying is that in my experience, foreign nationals without immersive exposure to English tend to speak heavily accented, many times to the point of unintelligibility, English. Perhaps your Indian colleague has a gift for languages or actually has been immersed in an English-speaking environment long enough to "lose" much of his accent. Perhaps as he was learning English he had a teacher who was particularly attentive and/or knowledgable about how English is spoken and sounds. I don't know. I'm happy that you find working and communicating with him easy.

I worked a help desk at one time (small company with sophisticated software, not a lot of customers - maybe 20 or 30 - but priced high enough and with maintenance fees for support), and always dreaded calls from one particular site. The guy was from Malaysia and spoke so thickly accented that it was *very* hard to understand.

Time went by, and his enunciation improved. Eventually, the company made him an offer and he came to work for us. More time passed, the company president retired, and he himself became the president of the company. By that time, he still had an accent but while it was noticable it was no worse than, say, most British English speakers.

One of the guys up the command chain from me is from Asia (Korea, I think); he also speaks with a slight but noticable accent. But he's perfectly understandable.

So don't think I'm painting all people from Asia or any other part of the world with a "I can't understand the hell what they're saying" brush. Some, through schooling, immersive language training, or some other means, speak English very well. It's just that I am somewhat less than confident Dell or whatever company they hire will take the care to ensure that their offshore help desks will be so - after all, this *is* a cost cutting measure, and the more costs cut, the better.
"I didn't know you could drive to Europe." -- An eavesdropper, piping in when he overheard a conversation about someone who had driven to Montreal.
New I've spent many minutes trying to adjust.
Hours, even. But I haven't got the hang of that particular accent. It's still blooble-ooble-ooble.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
New Oh puleeze.
Bear in mind that I can barely understand the presenters on the NPR hourly newscast, because their enunciation is so poor and their pronunciation so tortured, and you'll realise that you're in no position to comment.

How /is/ your Hindi, Urdu, Gujurat and Punjabi coming along?

Be very thankful they're manning the phones for /us/ and not the other way around.


Peter
Shill For Hire
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
New Well, my Marathi is improving but,
not in words commonly applicable to machines.

I'm sure that the standard solution offered Everywhere: RRR - will be easy to learn in ANY language. Let's see, at say ~$40 min/call: that's about

$US 13.33333333333/per letter-'R'. Hey, that's cheaper than buying a vowel from Vanna!


[US oriented: Wheel of Fortune with longest-running mindless letter-turner in US broadcast history. Oh Gawd.. maybe it gets exported to UK too! It's everywhere else and maybe in Urdu too, but somehow I'd hoped that the British..] never mind.


Ashton Consultants Ltd.
Tech Help RRR' Us
New Last time I called GE about the smell of burning plastic...
from the new stove oven, I was talking to an Indian. "Not to worry, sir." "That is normal the first few times you use it." I know the accent well and it wasn't the worst Hinglish I've heard (including here in US, in person).

Bank of America, headquartered here in Charlotte, announced 5% of IT development will be done in India. I know one BofA contractor who is losing his job after he's done training some Indians on the applications he's been working on.

The internet and the communications revolution has made IT jobs very portable. More so than people.

And you thought H1-Bs were bad.

There is more job security in flipping burgers (except when an illegal alien with bogus ID is available).
Alex

"Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
New Deja vu..
A friend was redoing small kitchen; installed a GE (I think.) with schmancy digital clock in fascia. Clock face seems way-too Hot to this experienced electronic type. She called them.

They said - there's a small fan which keeps the electronics cool. Trouble is, we hear no fan (ovens don't make a lot of masking noise). Nor is one shown on the crude wiring diagram. To prove it, we'd have to likely pull the sucker out = disconnect gas yada yada.

Oh.. remember your washer which ran >25 years? Well this POS is warranteed for ONE year - and it just expired. Guess where the extra profits for cheap labor AND shoddy product, go. Guess who pays for early retirement of PLASTIC fascia used in an OVEN and too hot to touch. At the store, you can't tell this via a cold demo model; so much for caveat emptor - Hey! appliances are now just like Windoze: preloaded with plastic, and shorter and shorter lifetime.

(I just retired my Record-A-Call ans. machine after a 24/7 18 year run; fixed a switch on it ~ 5 years ago.) Replacement POS... never mind. The trend was disgusting some time ago.. nobody blinks.


Ashton
New Article from ZDNet Achordesk, 3/21/2002
[link|http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2856761,00.html|ZDNet article]

Tech companies shipping U.S. jobs overseas? Make 'em pay
David Coursey,
Executive Editor, AnchorDesk
Thursday, March 21, 2002

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I think the first responsibility of American business (and consumers) is to provide jobs for Americans. I mention this today because of a call I got from a 20-something friend who works for a software company as a tech support rep.

Actually, though he calls it the best job he's ever had, he isn't strictly speaking an employee of the company. He's an independent contractor. So even though he does the same work as a regular employee, the company doesn't have to provide him with the same benefits, job security, or salary.

GOOD THING my friend is married and his wife gets benefits at her job. Otherwise, he wouldn't have any health insurance. Now I couldn't tell you why employers are responsible for providing the nation's workers with health care. But they are. And for many people, not having a job means not having decent medical coverage.


Pretty soon my friend will need more than just his wife's benefits. That's why he was calling me: He just found out his job is being exported to the Philippines, where people are happy to answer the phone and provide (mostly lousy) tech support for a lot less money than Americans.

So pretty soon my friend, who just started his career a few years ago, will be starting a new one all over again.

I'm especially sensitive to this because our economy seems to have lost many of the real jobs that once led to real careers. In their place, we've got dead-end, zero-training, zero-advancement jobs in the fast-food industry.

MY CAREER BEGAN, at age 15, working for free as a gofer at a Dallas radio station. That became a paid job and the rest, as they say, is history. But those jobs don't exist anymore, thanks to automation, deregulation, and consolidation in the broadcasting industry. How does the next kid follow in my footsteps?

I am not sure what happens if we can't provide decent opportunities for young people to experience the joys and gain the experience that comes with real work--but it can't be good. Are we really happy with an economy where an estimated one in eight workers gets their first job at McDonald's? Would I have had a radio career if my first work experience had been under the Golden Arches?

Another friend, this one an executive at another big software company, is permitted to hire whomever he wants--as long as they live in India or Australia. Why? Because labor is much less expensive there than in the U.S.

So we've got one company that's closing a support facility here to move it to Asia, and another that doesn't even try to fill jobs at home. There's something vaguely unpatriotic about all this. Especially when the jobs are things like answering the phone to talk to American customers or developing programs to be sold primarily to American companies.

WE NEED TO remove some of the incentives for companies to export jobs. How? One way would be to require companies to follow American minimum-wage laws when they hire overseas. Let's also make them pay the same wages overseas they would pay to hire the same worker in the U.S.--along with the same package of benefits. We could also require companies to show the job could not be filled in the U.S. before exporting it.

Please note that I'm talking about jobs where the people providing the service and the customers live in different countries. Telephone-support reps and programmers are just two examples, but you could apply the concept to many other jobs.

I think it's fine that people in Thailand answer calls from Thailand, maybe even calls from all of Asia. But if they are answering calls from the U.S., the companies that hire these people ought to prove the Thai workers aren't taking American jobs. And if they aren't, pay them like American workers.

The other thing I'd like to do is to treat revenue generated overseas as an import. And establish a duty that, again, makes it roughly as expensive to do the work overseas as here at home. For example, if 20 percent of a new database was coded overseas, then 20 percent of the revenue from that product should be treated as an import. Support and other services provided offshore could be treated in the same way.

IS THIS PROTECTIONISM? Sure it is. I'm sure a panel of noted economists will be happy to convene and tell me that I'm nuts. Well, let them come up with something better. I'm open to suggestions.

The future of the American workforce requires close attention--and not just an eye to the bottom line. We've seen other industries--textiles and steel among them--move overseas. Formerly high-paid jobs like meat cutting have been replaced by low-skill, cheap imported labor.

If this sounds like I am proposing unionization for technology industries, I'm not there yet. But if the companies don't take a closer look at their enlightened self-interest, then only bad things--more regulation or the much-hated unions--are in store.
lincoln
"Four score and seven years ago, I had a better sig"
New Thank you Supply Side Economics!
The more money we give back to the big corps, the more they will move workshops, employment, and other things to other countries. First the H1B Visas, then sweatshops over seas, and then move the factory, and the later the HQ. Where do they get the money for this? From the tax breaks for the wealthy corps and tax loopholes.

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
     Buy a Dell, send American jobs to India - (lincoln) - (21)
         Look at it this way - (pwhysall)
         Such is the way with cheap commodities - (marlowe)
         Oh god. Never plan on buying a Dell with support - (wharris2) - (14)
             They make more effort than you, it seems. - (Meerkat) - (11)
                 Just play pretend for a second. - (wharris2) - (9)
                     Every day at work I manage to converse - (Meerkat) - (8)
                         Ya know what? - (imric) - (6)
                             This is *not* new. - (Silverlock)
                             Re: Ya know what? - (pwhysall) - (4)
                                 And elsewhere . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                                 And it's even harder to understand many from England -NT - (tonytib) - (1)
                                     But the Lancastrians are worth the effort. -NT - (marlowe)
                                 I agree. - (imric)
                         I'm not saying there aren't. - (wharris2)
                 I've spent many minutes trying to adjust. - (marlowe)
             Oh puleeze. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                 Well, my Marathi is improving but, - (Ashton)
         Last time I called GE about the smell of burning plastic... - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
             Deja vu.. - (Ashton)
         Article from ZDNet Achordesk, 3/21/2002 - (lincoln)
         Thank you Supply Side Economics! - (orion)

I promise you that if I am compelled to turn to the Dark Side on this issue you will come to yearn for the suave ripostes of CRConrad.
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