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New socialism fail?
http://www.nytimes.c.../23europe.html?hp
In Athens, Aris Iordanidis, 25, an economics graduate working in a bookstore, resents paying high taxes to finance Greece’s bloated state sector and its employees. “They sit there for years drinking coffee and chatting on the telephone and then retire at 50 with nice fat pensions,” he said. “As for us, the way things are going we’ll have to work until we’re 70.”

In Rome, Aldo Cimaglia is 52 and teaches photography, and he is deeply pessimistic about his pension. “It’s going to go belly-up because no one will be around to fill the pension coffers,” he said. “It’s not just me; this country has no future.”

Changes have now become urgent. Europe’s population is aging quickly as birthrates decline. Unemployment has risen as traditional industries have shifted to Asia. And the region lacks competitiveness in world markets.
thanx,
bill
New More like a government fail
Greece could have dealt with the situation long ago by gradually reducing out their overly generous retirement programs. The general problem has been known for some time. But the previous governments instead let the situation run out of control while using bogus financial transactions to cover it up. The current government came clean, but the problem was already too big for Greece to deal with on their own.

The deals where setup and run by Goldman Sachs. This is why the EU has suddenly become totally unsympathetic to the investment firms. They can't directly nail Goldman Sachs because the deals where not illegal. But helping Greece run a set of deals that did nothing but let Greece lie about their deficit and bypass the EU laws really pissed off a lot of people.

Jay
New Pensions are only a small part of the problem.
I don't know if it has changed in the last 20 years, but an obvious symptom of Greece's (or was it Italy's?) problems was in their housing regulations. Going through small towns you'd see houses that were recently built, and people living in them, but the top story wasn't done. So you'd see 2-3 story houses with 1-2 stories being lived in. Why? Because, apparently, the houses weren't taxed until they were "complete". And they never would be "complete".

More for Greece: http://www.bloomberg...&sid=apSz28ifLL9U
More for Italy from 2007: http://www.nytimes.c...es.4.6129007.html

No society will work well for very long if the tax system is so obviously gamed like that. Greece doesn't collect enough taxes. Slashing pensions is just treating a symptom of their problems, and IMHO, the public workers have a right to be upset if they're the only ones required to make sacrifices.

Cheers,
Scott.
New True, pensions are only part
True, pensions are only part of the problem. The dysfunctional tax system may actually be the biggest part of it.

My point was that the problem was not rooted their socialism, but in the corruption and failure of the recent Greek governments. Governments that covered up a problem that could have been dealt with until it was a disaster.

Jay
New Yup.
New at least they didn't blame the unions
they've always been a whipping boy for those conservatives.




"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from."

-- E.L. Doctorow
     socialism fail? - (boxley) - (5)
         More like a government fail - (jay) - (3)
             Pensions are only a small part of the problem. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                 True, pensions are only part - (jay) - (1)
                     Yup. -NT - (Another Scott)
         at least they didn't blame the unions - (lincoln)

Anyone who would spend $5000 on a laptop is either Todd, or out of his mind.
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