I must not like...

Post #325,311 by beepster 4/27/10 9:08:30 AM Reply	I must not like... because the law in AZ and Pat's take on it sound fairly sensible to me... http://www.wnd.com/i...iew&pageId=146341 I was there when the rancher was shot. Was through some of the not so nice areas in the 2 main towns...its much worse now that it was when I was living there nearly 20 years back. And while the vast majority of news is leading one to believe the AZ governor has stepped out on a minority limb...Pat has it right...the vast majority of people in AZ support this step. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #325,312 by boxley 4/27/10 9:17:27 AM Reply	disagree Point out the federal statute that makes being an undocumented Alien within the US borders a criminal act. Arizona simply needs to enact a law that affects all workers, must have a county registered work permit. Must be documented to get it. No card no work they leave. As far as criminal acts, round em up and ship em out. Arizona has laws up the ass, so get busy enforcing what you got instead of using the old Indian Law. You know, cant find the Indian you want so punish the Indian you can find. I was hoping after a couple of hundred years we might have moved beyond that. If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #325,316 by beepster 4/27/10 9:47:14 AM Reply	Its not being here that does it.. ...its how you got in. All of those processes are well defined. And your alternative means that all people would have to register for work...lets see anyone pass something like that (national/state/county id card). Wouldn't float. And why should AZ and other border states have to fund all of the expense to police people that shouldn't be here in the first place? Thats the basis of what they are saying. Fed inaction has created an unsustainable situation in their state, which they are now acting to correct. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #325,318 by boxley 4/27/10 10:32:21 AM Reply	if you are seen wandering around phoenix without documents you cannot prove in a court of law how they got in. Nothing criminal in overstaying a day visit. here is a link on how similar laws were enacted in philly in 1956 to round up the undesirables. http://www.law.berke...iles/Skolnick.pdf We learn that the Philadelphia police regularly rounded up ÂundesirablesÂ in periodic drives. Caleb describes a drive against those so-called undesirables who were occupying PhiladelphiaÂs newly completed Independence Hall. The drive wasÂnot surprisingly-- popular with the general public, and surely with the editorial staff of The Philadelphia Inquirer, which titled an editorial, ÂGet Bums off the Street and Into Prison Cells.Â sounds familiar to sheriff Joe doesnt it? If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #325,319 by boxley 4/27/10 10:44:46 AM Reply	USSC has already addressed this . In a later case, a plurality of the Court interpreted Robinson to mean that the punishment of "mere status" is unconstitutional: "[C]riminal penalties may be inflicted only if the accused has committed some act . . . which society has an interest in preventing" (Powell v. Texas, 392 U.S. 514, 533 (1968)). Cant criminalize being hispanic If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #325,476 by boxley 4/30/10 11:57:20 AM Reply	like you said http://thehill.com/h...-national-id-card If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #325,550 by beepster 5/2/10 1:13:23 PM Reply	Brilliant do nothing at the border for years and years, then propose the ID card you've been trying so hard to get so you can fix the problem you created. We've softened on the idea...heck, most western nations have an id card system...so we're just being more like them, right? I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #325,350 by mhuber 4/28/10 3:51:53 AM Reply	Enforce what you've got My latest job was the first that actually demanded to see my SS card. I've never seen it myself, Dad wrote the number on a piece of paper for me when I needed it the first time. So I asked Dad for my card. He's got no clue where it is. Went to the Social Security office. Had all the ID I could find with me, including passport. They told me I wasn't legal to work. I'm a Mexican. True, I am Mexican. Born in the old DF. I showed them my passport, they said cool, State Dept. says you are a citizen, you are a citizen. They update my records, I get my job, all is well. Apparently Dad or Grandpa was supposed to fill out a paper that said "but his parents are Americans, so he is too" for me when I was little and forgot to do it. My point: I worked 30 years as an official, documented illegal alien. My papers, which I've never hidden, said (mistakenly) "this guy is a ferner, hell no you can't hire his wetback ass". And nobody has said "Boo". I'm suspecting because of my pale hide and impeccably semi-Germanic butchery of the ol' Anglo Saxon sprach. So, maybe instead of going out and checking people's papers because you fail to realize who the bad guys are when you watch old movies you ought to pay attention to the papers that legitimately come before you. --------------------------------------- Why, yes, I did give up something for lent. I gave up making sense.
Post #325,357 by Another Scott 4/28/10 7:27:31 AM Reply	It's so easy for paperwork to be wrong. J and her twin sister have Social Security numbers that differ by one digit. And similar first names. Naturally, over the years, mistakes have been made in various credit reports. The end result was that when it came time to refinance a mortgage, the bankers would say things like - "hey, your cost is going to go up because you don't have enough income for 2 houses." Stress would ensue. They sometimes get mail for the other even though they live 1500 miles apart. And we don't even have National ID Cards. Yet... Thanks for the post. Be happy you don't live in Arizona! But apparently similar laws are being pushed in Ohio (of all places)... Cheers, Scott.
Post #325,563 by Another Scott 5/2/10 10:20:02 PM Reply	Counterpoint. TNC's blog: http://www.theatlant...#comment-48039427 Caleb Das [Moderator] 9 hours ago in reply to CnNaevius 2 people liked this. In 2004, my ex's dad and I were driving through Missouri on our way from Texas to New Jersey when we were stopped for no driving too close to the white line. We clearly weren't doing that. My ex's dad is a technically perfect always safe driver. We weren't even over the speed limit. It was 7 am and the roads were practically deserted. However, my ex's dad is quite clearly a Mexican man and I'm not white. The car was a 2004 Ford Mustang, which the cop informed us was the most commonly used car that Mexican drug dealers used to transport drugs. So he made up an excuse to stop us and searched our car and possessions. I stepped out to dispose of an apple core and had a gun pulled on me, for possible assault (and once he saw it was an apple core, littering, but he didn't put the gun down). After it was all done and it was clear we weren't running drugs, he assured us, unasked, that there was no racial profiling involved. He said his family was Italian and his people know from racial discrimination and trust him, this wasn't it. Real racial discrimination is other shit, you know? Reasonable suspicion also gives you license to make up your own suspicions. I'm willing to bet that if this were to happen to us in Arizona now, we'd be asked for our papers just to make sure we weren't both drug dealers AND illegals. Our laws don't allow the majority to trample on the rights of the minority. At least the Constitutional ones don't. Cheers, Scott.
Post #325,564 by beepster 5/2/10 10:27:05 PM Reply	So we choose selective enforcement, is that it? Folks in AZ have no rest stops on the highway from budget cuts, but should be forced by the Fed to keep paying for a problem that is not theirs. Also find it interesting that anyone that feels the undocumented folks should be removed is a racist. (thats what we would be led to believe). I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #325,565 by Another Scott 5/2/10 10:51:40 PM Reply	Nope. Arizona has no business trying to enforce federal law. We have government divided into different responsibilities (local, state, federal) for many good reasons. As Box said many times, being an undocumented/illegal alien is usually not a criminal offense. It is a civil offense. It's a federal responsibility to deal with it. http://www.immigrati...alEnforcement.pdf (6 page .pdf) Arizona does not have jurisdiction over immigration policy. The law is unconstitutional and almost certainly will be struck down if it isn't repealed first. IMHO. Rest stops are closed all over the country. It's not due to illegal immigration - it's because of the Republican policies the blew up the economy and state revenues have declined ~ 25% in some areas. I have no interest in reading WND nor Pat nor trying to read your mind about whatever "problem" that undocumented people in Arizona are causing that this law will somehow address. Whatever their stated reasoning, the Republicans in the Arizona legislature and the governor don't get overrule the Constitution. Also find it interesting that anyone that feels the undocumented folks should be removed is a racist. (thats what we would be led to believe). Another strawman. :-/ Cheers, Scott.
Post #325,566 by beepster 5/2/10 11:44:30 PM Reply	So what is a state to do when the fed abdicates its responsibility? This is the situation. Yes, it certainly is a constitutional issue and I expect the law to be struck down as well. Doesn't change the fact that Washington is completely inactive about an issue that is causing the border states severe economic harm and their citizenry real bodily harm. They are trying to do something, something their citizens by large numbers actually support. The farmers murder really galvanized the issue for AZ and we'll see if this actually gets the beltway off their ass. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #325,567 by Another Scott 5/3/10 12:11:19 AM Reply	What is a state to do about ANY federal issue? They can: 1) Lobby other states' representatives and senators to get legislation moving. 2) Vote out their existing representatives and replace them with ones who are more sympathetic to that issue. 3) Bring a lawsuit in federal court. Things like that. The states can't take unconstitutional actions because they feel the feds aren't doing their job. Immigration is hardly the only issue with federal responsibility and federal inaction over the last couple of decades... Cheers, Scott.
Post #325,568 by beepster 5/3/10 12:26:33 AM Reply	Its not unconstitutional until it is ruled as such and while there may be other things they aren't doing, not sure how many are resulting in the violent deaths of AZ citizens. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #325,569 by Another Scott 5/3/10 12:33:50 AM Reply	So asking for papers is going to cut the murder rate?
Post #325,570 by beepster 5/3/10 8:31:53 AM Reply	Possibly and seen alot of folks throwing out the "crime is down in AZ, so it can't be the illegals" argument being tossed about. Fact is about 15% of the inmates are illegal compared to about 7% of the population. There were some 1100 attacks on border patrols and about 300 kidnappings in Phoenix related to smuggling and human traffic. These are crimes with a specific root cause and pretty specific to the border. I don't expect that the folks in DC would get it, because they don't see it there...ever. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #325,572 by Another Scott 5/3/10 8:39:23 AM Reply	By that logic, all white males < 35 should be in prison.
Post #325,574 by beepster 5/3/10 8:45:06 AM Reply	Really you see a spat of drug related kidnappings going on in Butte Montana? I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #325,577 by boxley 5/3/10 9:03:20 AM Reply	here ya go http://www.maiwah.org/tong.htm If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #325,581 by beepster 5/3/10 9:47:32 AM 5/3/10 9:48:32 AM Reply	1922. Good find ;-) I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill. Edited by beepster May 3, 2010, 09:48:32 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #325,573 by boxley 5/3/10 8:41:25 AM Reply	jaysus beep if someone is killin robbin kidnapping catch em try em and hangem. If you are too lazy scared or dumb to do that dont grab granma off the street and kick her out of the country and trumpet you are fixing the problem. sheesh, bill If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #325,571 by boxley 5/3/10 8:36:38 AM Reply	I was stopped for a dwi in missouri driving while indian. A local deputy here in GA laughed and said we call it driving while hispanic here. It happens, they will stop whoever fits a profile that matches a known criminal activity. I dont really have much of a gripe there as it gets sorted out in court where profiling doesnt count and may get someone out on a probable cause basis. This is different. If an illegal is commiting a crime, lock their ass up and kick them out of the company. Like I have pointed out earlier in the thread, status (just the fact of existing in place) does not constitute a crime and will be tossed at the federal level. Yes Arizona has a lot of grief from crime and the feds are not doing their share but the Indian solution is the wrong solution. Get the bad guys lock them up and leave ordinary people alone. thanx, bill If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)

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