Post #325,111
4/24/10 2:14:47 AM
4/24/10 2:17:18 AM
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How do widescreen TVs deal with widescreen DVDs?
I've got an HDTV. I play a widescreen DVD and it's letterboxed all the way around. It's the exact same ratio as the screen, but there's no setting that will expand it to fill the screen.
I can expand horizontally, leaving it letterboxed top and bottom. I can do a couple of other expanded modes, both of which cut off significant parts of the edges.
Am I missing something, or is this what I can expect from DVDs until everything goes Blueray?
By the way, this is an integrated TV/DVD player, so it's not that the DVD player and TV settings don't match.
--
Drew
Edited by drook
April 24, 2010, 02:17:18 AM EDT
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Post #325,122
4/24/10 8:23:55 AM
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It may be something you have to live with.
Depends on the source, apparently.
http://www.audioholi...oxed-and-pan-scan
High Definition Televisions and Aspect Ratios - I Still See Black Bars!!!
Yes, HDTVs did not eliminate the need for black bars. What we hope, is that once people understand the reason for this, it won't bother them nearly as much. HDTV did for television what DVD did for home video - and it's now doing so at about the same amazing pace. Widescreen TVs, and high definition television programming is set at a 16:9 (or 1:1.78) aspect ratio. They match. What doesn't match are many films which are shot at a much wider aspect ratio, as well as standard definition and DTV programming which is still at 4:3.
What this means is that even though you now have a brand new high definition television, you will still experience black bars from time to time, or you'll need to scale your video to stretch to fit the TV. In either case, this isn't a bad thing, just part of being involved in a transition period and point of tremendous technological change.
Recommendations for Handling Formats Correctly on Your Television
Before making any recommendations, we'll need to know what kind of television you have and what you're watching. Here are some common scenarios and our suggested guidelines:
* HDTV with HDTV content: Congratulations, you'll be enjoying the full potential of your television with no black bars or distortion. Be sure your TV is set to its standard (non Zoom, non stretch) mode for the best possible picture.
* HDTV with standard definition, DTV content, or 4:3/pan-and-scan/full screen DVD: In order to watch content in its proper aspect ratio you'll see black bars on the left and right of the television screen (effectively rendering your new 16:9 television into a 4:3 television.) Another option is to use a stretch or smart stretch mode to fit the content to the full width of the television. Make sure your DVD player is set correctly in 16:9/widescreen mode.
* HDTV with widescreen/anamorphic DVD: Here you will see black bars on the top and bottom of the picture. This is simply because the original image is wider than the HDTV. To preserve the picture in its entirety, leave the television set to standard mode and be sure your DVD player is set correctly in 16:9/widescreen mode.
* Standard 4:3 TV with standard definition, DTV content, or 4:3/pan-and-scan/full screen DVD: You won't have any problems playing any of this content on your TV and it will show without any black bars. Make sure your DVD player is set correctly in 4:3/pan-and-scan mode.
* Standard 4:3 TV with widescreen/anamorphic DVD: Here you will see black bars on the top and bottom of the picture. This is simply because the original image is significantly wider than the TV. To preserve the picture in its entirety, leave the television set to standard mode and be sure your DVD player is set correctly in 16:9/widescreen mode.
So where does this leave us? Well, it hopefully explained a bit about aspect ratios and why black bars are going to be a part of your television viewing experience for some time. I also hope it illustrates that these black bars are not necessarily a bad thing as they preserve and display movie content in the manner it was original conceived.
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who hasn't had to deal with this stuff yet...)
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Post #325,123
4/24/10 8:29:49 AM
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None of those cases fit
I've got widescreen TV (with integrated DVD player) and a widescreen movie. Set to no zoom, the aspect ratio I see is exactly the same as the screen with a uniform black border all the way around. There is no display format that will show the picture zoomed to fill the screen without cutting off the ends, and the only zoom format that stretches it to the sides doesn't stretch it vertically at all.
--
Drew
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Post #325,127
4/24/10 9:08:02 AM
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Linky?
As I understand it, if you can't zoom it to fit, then either the black bars are encoded in the DVD or the aspect ratio doesn't match your TV.
What DVD are we talking about? If you're trying to watch "This is Cinerama", well, you're going to be out of luck. ;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #325,130
4/24/10 9:15:37 AM
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Happens with every widescreen I've tried
And on two different (cheap) players. One is the in-car player, the other is the small TV. Both have integrated DVD. I'll find one and shoot a quick vid to show it.
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Drew
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Post #325,142
4/24/10 11:38:19 AM
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Video of what it looks like
http://www.youtube.c...tch?v=J1yKKTKYe3E
The 16:9 setting might be showing the correct format, but the top and bottom bars are the same as on 4:3, so I don't think so.
--
Drew
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Post #325,144
4/24/10 12:17:26 PM
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I think it's working as designed.
http://www.cobyusa.com/?p=glossary
Letterboxing
The scaling of a widescreen image to fit a standard 4:3 aspect ratio TV screen by shrinking the image so that the width fits exactly. The horizontal black bars that appear above and below the image are actually recorded with the picture, so some of the picture's vertical resolution is lost when you view it. Letterboxing is much more common on DVD movies than VHS videos.
It looks like you want an "anamorphic" version of the movie:
Anamorphic
A type of widescreen display format commonly found on DVD movies. It is optimized for playback on a TV with 16:9 aspect ratio (or TVs with a "vertical squeeze" viewing mode like Sony's 16:9 Enhanced). On a standard TV, anamorphic material look horizontally squeezed. Anamorphic DVDs are often labeled on their cases "enhanced for 16x9 televisions," "enhanced for widescreen televisions," "16x9 anamorphic," or "anamorphic widescreen." An anamorphic widescreen DVD has significantly higher resolution than a letterboxed widescreen DVD. For example, for a film shot in the commonly-used 1.85:1 aspect ratio, a letterboxed DVD presentation uses only 345 vertical scan lines (the remaining scan lines are taken up by the horizontal black bars above and below the image). That same film in anamorphic widescreen will use anywhere from 460 to the full 480 scan lines.
HTH. Corrections welcome.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #325,151
4/24/10 1:09:46 PM
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"Enhanced for widescreen" is worse
That one just said it preserved the 1.85 ratio. So I tried one that said "Enhanced for widescreen TVs". That one had a black border from the TV all around the image, plus black bars top and bottom from the DVD.
I could stretch to 16:9 format, which just eliminated the TV-added border on the sides, or "Cinema" which zoomed (preserving aspect ratio) so that the top and bottom TV-added border was gone, which cut off lots of the sides, and still kept the black borders top and bottom from the DVD. No zoom mode eliminated the DVD letterboxing.
I know this is a cheap DVD player, but this is just ridiculous.
--
Drew
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Post #325,156
4/24/10 2:51:22 PM
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I guess you're stuck. Sorry.
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Post #325,159
4/24/10 7:13:17 PM
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The 16 x 9 looked about right.
I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
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Post #325,133
4/24/10 9:35:25 AM
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Crap DVD player
Integrated == shitty
External cheap == shitty
Just a thought.
My Samsung Blueray with 1080p upscaling USUALLY fixes DVDs so then I can use the TV's various screen sizes to match, but not always.
If you have the time, pickup a high-end player to test, then return it.
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Post #325,136
4/24/10 10:05:22 AM
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What you should see
if you are 16X9 is the standard letterbox for most widescreen movies. Some are 16x9 and they will say on the back.
You should not see side bars unless watching standard (modified for your screen) 4x3...but you would be full top to bottom.
IOW, I'm leaning with the "crap" definition down below. I get the bars all around on some tv broadcasts..but standard zoom fills the screen with no cutoff.
I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
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Post #325,161
4/24/10 10:44:26 PM
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It looks like you've been got twice.
It looks like that DVD is formatted for 4:3 and the source material is letterboxed before encoding. Thus black bars all around. :-/
I know when DVD was first taking off, there were very few DVDs in region 1 that were formatted for 16:9, whereas many region 4 titles that used widescreen material were.
The other thing to have a careful look for depends on how well integrated the TV and the DVD player are. Often, they are not: there will be one set of menus for the TV and another entirely separate for the the DVD player's setup and they don't appear to know about each other. If this is the case, treat them as two separate devices. Tell the DVD player it is outputting to a widescreen TV and tell the TV not to futz with the image.
Wade.
Q:Is it proper to eat cheeseburgers with your fingers?
A:No, the fingers should be eaten separately.
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Post #325,172
4/25/10 11:51:17 AM
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That's what I suspect too
that the DVD player still has it's own set of settings. Have you tried switching to the DVD player when it doesn't have a DVD in it? I've seen DVD players that only display the "output screen 16:9/4:3" option when there's nothing in them.
Another thing that might help is if we knew the make & model of this combo set.
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Post #325,175
4/25/10 12:00:13 PM
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It's a Coby something or other. No sign of an online manual.
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Post #325,182
4/25/10 7:02:55 PM
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Score!
LCD setup and DVD setup are two different menu systems. When I told the DVD that it was outputting to a 16:9 screen, then set the LCD to 16:9, I get full scope with correct letterboxing.
It hadn't occurred to me that the cheapest way to integrate a DVD player into the TV was to just stuff one into the case, connect two sets of wires to the infrared pickup, and use a multi-function remote. But that seems to be exactly what they did.
--
Drew
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Post #325,186
4/25/10 8:27:45 PM
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Saw with it Video TVs years ago.
Would never buy one myself, but Dad sometimes gets given trash like that that usually has just one thing wrong with them (he sometimes repairs things like that).
Wade.
Q:Is it proper to eat cheeseburgers with your fingers?
A:No, the fingers should be eaten separately.
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Post #325,188
4/25/10 9:07:15 PM
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This was a deal on Woot
I think it was like $200 for a 23-inch HDTV/monitor with integrated DVD. Haven't seen anything else close to that price.
--
Drew
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Post #325,189
4/25/10 9:10:22 PM
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wonder if that's why it was on Woot!
Seems to be a major QC screwup to have the integrated DVD player set to 4:3. Bet they got lots of returns.
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Post #325,190
4/25/10 9:16:22 PM
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Wouldn't surprise me
I'd have to go double-check the manual, but I'm pretty sure it didn't mention the DVD settings at all. I just saw the button on the remote and thought, "Huh, I wonder what this does."
Speaking of the manual, it was typical of the kind I hate. Click the "Format" button and it cycles among, "Standard, 16:9, 4:3, Cinema". In the directions it says, "Press the "Format" button to select Standard, 16:9, 4:3 or Cinema format." Well no shit, really? I'm glad they wrote that down.
--
Drew
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Post #325,196
4/25/10 11:07:42 PM
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:-)
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Post #325,205
4/26/10 3:51:40 AM
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I forgot to mention.
I've seen idiotic default settings numerous times before.
I have a portable DVD player. Typical flimsy plastic, top-loading thing. It seems to be imported through a small dealer on ebay who made a very cursory request for it to support region 4 DVDs by default. Unfortunately, it has a rather ironic bug: the LCD and it's controller chip were unashamedly designed for NTSC. PAL is so much of an afterthought that the scaler in the LCD controller is barely capable it. The support person for the importer did not understand my problem.
But there is a simple, albeit non-obvious solution. The DVD player's rendering chip can transcode from PAL to NTSC! And it does a *much* better job than the LCD's scaler at handling PAL... Urk.
Next time I want a portable DVD player, I'm going to try one out in a shop and pay twice the going rate on ebay. :-(
Wade.
Q:Is it proper to eat cheeseburgers with your fingers?
A:No, the fingers should be eaten separately.
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Post #325,211
4/26/10 8:31:12 AM
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next time you want a portable dvd player buy a macbook
If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
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Post #325,270
4/26/10 7:57:10 PM
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Two problems with that.
1. It's a lot larger than the conveninent 7" or 9" displays of the portable players.
2. It's a *lot* more expensive than a dedicated portable player from a mainstream electronics store. And I don't need another computer.
Oh, and it's an Apple. The fanboism by the employees in the Mac stores is a distinct putoff. Other than that, it's basically not a bad idea. Maybe for my next Linux laptop I'll get one with an optical drive.
Wade.
Q:Is it proper to eat cheeseburgers with your fingers?
A:No, the fingers should be eaten separately.
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Post #325,227
4/26/10 10:40:07 AM
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Synchronicity
--
Drew
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Post #325,271
4/26/10 8:18:50 PM
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Things I've learnt about HD TV.
One of my goals is to buy a data projector for my MythTV box. Full HD projectors are, unfortunately, rather pricey. But there are plenty that do 1024x768 (XGA) and lots more that do 800x600 (SVGA) which is almost PAL... and I'm currently using an ordinary TV with it, anyway. Hmm.
Having been a reasonably early adopter of digital TV, it's been instructive to watch how it's developed here in Australia. I remember a decade ago how one particular network was pushing for mandatory HDTV, whilst another was really strong on multi-channelling. This resulted in a bun-fight that the Federal Government had to arbitrate over. When they all finally pulled their fingers out and got on with it, they all provided a SD channel with same content as on analogue, plus a HD channel that was the same content most of the time. And 'most of the time' is a crucial detail in the story.
Remember, too, that a decade ago, HD TVs were almost non-existant and *if* you could find one, very very expensive. Of course, in the meantime, flat-screen technology has come down in price and gone up in resolution and HDTVs are everywhere. But it turned out that Joe Public had almost no interest in HD over SD images. Given a choice between better pictures and more content, the vast majority of the viewing public will chose more content every time.
The three commercial networks in Australia have now long abandoned promoting their HD stream (ABC and SBS never even did that). All of them discovered the hard way that a HD stream that is usually the same but sometimes different from the main SD stream confuses much more than helps.
Ten eventually chose to completely re-purpose their HD stream to sport (which gives them an interesting advantage with graphics) but do have a SD repeater stream. Seven and Nine setup completely new SD streams... just as the ABC setup a third. And more are on the way.
Multi-channeling in SD is so very clearly what the great unwashed want. Not HD. I'm still going to try to find a projector that does at least 1024x768 (XGA), but I'm unlikely to invest in one that does full HD for quite a long time.
Wade.
Q:Is it proper to eat cheeseburgers with your fingers?
A:No, the fingers should be eaten separately.
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Post #325,293
4/26/10 11:44:48 PM
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turned out the other way here
The Fox network was broadcasting in "High Resolution" (480p 16:9 - DVD quality) while everybody else was broadcasting 720p or 1080i. Lots of people complained and they now broadcast 720p.
I suspect it's because we switched over before you did and the early adopters (those into it for the better picture quality) outnumbered Joe Sixpack at the time.
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