Not buying it

Post #324,650 by crazy 4/14/10 2:55:14 PM Reply	Not buying it Either the Ipad or the premise. CPUs and OSes (multi-tasking protected mode, ya'know) have come a long way. You telling me there isn't an MMU in that architecture?
Post #324,651 by SpiceWare 4/14/10 3:09:13 PM Reply	their target market doesn't even know what an MMU is.
Post #324,682 by crazy 4/15/10 4:48:54 PM 4/15/10 4:56:12 PM Reply	Nor should they But if the REASON they have limited multi-tasking and maintain such tight control is because it would cause them to crash if they didn't (according to that console example), then the statement is perfectly reasonable to toss off to yuou, assuming you know the role of an MMU in a protected mode CPU running a multi-tasking OS that has different level of persmissions assigned to certain memory areas. Which I'm pretty sure you do. Which means that line of reasoning is obviously bullshit. Unless there is no MMU in that CPU/chipset. I dunno. is there? Well, it's an ARM chip based on this: http://www.tipb.com/...x-a9-mali-50-gpu/ According wikipedia, this means it has "MMU+TrustZone". Which then leads me to this page, lots of very cool info. http://infocenter.ar...33h/I1002400.html A very nice MMU, lots of built in features. Yup. Edited by crazy April 15, 2010, 04:56:12 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #324,684 by SpiceWare 4/15/10 5:12:28 PM Reply	ah - multitasking I thought you were more concerned with other issues of the lockdown. What I've read on that issue is more along the lines that the restriction is due to 1) low memory and 2) no swap. http://www.mikeash.c...multitasking.html http://blog.rlove.or...dont-support.html http://daringfirebal...bile_multitasking
Post #324,686 by drook 4/15/10 6:00:30 PM Reply	And perceived speed is more important than measured I've heard a few reviews that mention how fast everything feels. And the guys who are used to doing hard-core performance reviews acknowledge that part of this is single tasking, part is eye candy. If the icon starts moving the second you touch it, and it takes .75 seconds to expand to full screen, you just gained .75 seconds in your app-opening time before people start to think it's slow. This thing lives and dies on perceived responsiveness. Even if it takes longer to get to the end of an action, they want to make sure it starts immediately, in a way that's highly visible to the user. In a multi-tasking windowing environment, Alt-Tab is an instant change. The iPad doesn't do that kind of instant. Instead of cut scenes, it does fades and wipes. I think the user experience they want to have is something like the Compiz effects, but that takes swap and video memory that the iPad just doesn't have -- yet. -- Drew
Post #324,690 by crazy 4/15/10 7:29:13 PM Reply	2 issues for me Multi-tasking is one, limited toolkit is the other. Ben T gave me a lecture a long time ago about ARM multi-tasking. He basically said it sucked. It took an incredibly fast single use device, and then tanked it. Maybe that is still true, and they are simply accomodating the hardware. Now, even if the limited toolkit is WONDERFUL, giving that ability to a vendor is insane. I've had too much vendor lock-in to allow it to happen without looking hard at other choices.
Post #324,691 by SpiceWare 4/15/10 7:42:59 PM Reply	Apple might be planning for underlying changes http://stevecheney.p...vertical-platform History often repeats itself: In 2003, Apple advised developers to switch to XCode tools. This was not a coincidental moveÂ2 years later Apple moved to Intel across its entire Mac line. Developers who complied could simply press a button and applications would run natively (full performance) on new Intel Macs. http://daringfirebal...e-platform-nimble Adobe did not ship (non-beta) Intel-native versions of the Creative Suite apps until April 2007, 16 months after Apple began shipping Intel-based Macs (and about two years after Apple announced the Intel transition). Adobe was also late shipping Mac OS X versions of Photoshop. ... Not wanting to wait two years for Adobe to update FlashÂs iPhone compiler is perfectly reasonable on AppleÂs part. Adobe has a track record regarding their preparedness for Apple platform shifts, and itÂs not good.
Post #324,697 by folkert 4/15/10 10:24:09 PM Reply	Just wait until the ARM... Workstations start appearing. Linux runs a wonderful on them. A hardware (re)distributor/(re)seller I am good friends with has just had a set of 10 demo boxes for a National Laboratory come through his shop. Won't run Windows 7 as of yet, but Microsoft is working on a version for ARM. These were 4 core demo workstations. Fullpower machines with 8GB of RAM and some kind of nVidia Video, a huge 1/2TB SSD, Blu-Ray drive and great sound and so on. He let me look at one while it was demonstrated to me. While the machine was compiling in the background (swiftly I might add), 29 Watts was the current draw at full speed and full use. Except for the Display... the display was a 24" Samsung Flat screen... rebranded to the demo brand which I'm not sure what it was as it was covered. (Its hard to replace the cover of the Samsung ones as its part of the main case.) Context switching penalties on these ARM mutli-core processors seems to be next to nothing. Responsiveness while compiling at -j5 was remarkable. If an open source OS runs on it... who cares about the toolkit? We Know OSX will run on it eventually (actually probably will right now if Apple allowed it.)
Post #324,700 by static 4/15/10 10:43:03 PM Reply	Microsoft? but Microsoft is working on a version for ARM. They are? A quick Google search suggests otherwise. Mind you, it's still an open game as to whether a cadre of netbook manufacturers can make much impact with Linux-on-ARM netbooks. ARM workstations will have the same problem as Linux on x86: where are the apps? Maybe if someone convinces Adobe to port Photoshop et al in a timely manner? (Don't make me laugh.) And Microsoft has repeatedly refused to port Office to Linux, and OpenOffice doesn't set the world alight as a replacement, unfortunately. Wade. Q:Is it proper to eat cheeseburgers with your fingers? A:No, the fingers should be eaten separately.
Post #324,701 by Another Scott 4/15/10 10:55:08 PM Reply	Clouds. The apps are in the Clouds. I'm sure Microsoft has people keeping an eye on ARM and probably has ports of Winders (of some flavor) running on it. Google and Apple have shown that one can build a thriving business not being chained to Windows. The Clouds are growing and there's going to be a lot of money made there. Now, of course, this doesn't mean that Windows will be gone in 5 years. It's going to be a behemoth for a long time. But not forever. Intel will be hurting when people don't need $300 processors. Microsoft will be hurting when people don't need $300 Office suites. When people have small portable screens that can be untethered from a power outlet as long as a cell phone, then the advantages will create their own market (as the iPad is showing). There will be a market for Photoshop and so forth on Winders, but there will be a bigger market for Picasa in the Cloud. I'd be surprised if in 3 years, an ARM machine isn't running Picasa and the rest of Google's apps. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott. (Who is hoping that AMD is around then, too.)
Post #324,707 by drook 4/16/10 2:48:40 AM Reply	Wasn't AutoCad on custom hardware for a long time? I won't be shocked if Photoshop/Illustrator et al go in that direction. Get enough happening in cloud-based apps and only the pros will need the high-end stuff. I've seen in-browser photo editing demos that probably couldn't have been done on a workstation 10 years ago. -- Drew
Post #324,710 by folkert 4/16/10 7:44:02 AM Reply	AutoCAD used to be... Exclusively UNIX, hence the "custom hardware". Then it was UNIX (custom hardware) or ANY DOS with a memory extender and a specific Video Card (Matrox ring a bell? How about GLINT?) How is that for a paradox. AutoCAD has become SO Windows centric that they aren't even coming close to looking at a version for OSX or Linux (or any BADs for that matter)
Post #324,737 by altmann 4/16/10 6:46:59 PM 4/16/10 6:47:15 PM Reply	No it didn't It was initially developed to run on CPM and DOS for a few microcomputers of the time (the IBM-PC being the one that survived that era). There was a Unix version or two later, as well as a Mac Classic version, but it was the DOS version that was by far the most used and the other versions were eventually dropped. I don't think it even required a DOS extender until release 9 or 10. Special video cards were also not required for a long time, though cards with special display list drivers were popular for increased performance. It was after the first one or two Windows versions is when they started to go much more Windows specific in the design of the program. Up until then, the entire GUI was driven by scripting, macros and text based menu and dialog and even toolbar definition files. By about R13 or R14 they started hard coding more of the UI to be Windows specific, but I stopped using it not long after that so I don't know how far they went. I know they added support for stuff like VBA. Edited by altmann April 16, 2010, 06:47:15 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #324,746 by folkert 4/16/10 9:09:02 PM Reply	Oh yeah... I'm thinking about the CADCAM stuff I used to use/support... the display was a vector display and a text monitor... geni-something...
Post #324,711 by Another Scott 4/16/10 7:44:54 AM Reply	Don't recall. Given the changes in the industry (multicore, VMs, etc.), I wouldn't be at all surprised if leased package solutions become vogue again. "You want to run Photoshop or AutoCad? We'll take care of you. $2k/seat for a year on our turn-key box." Why spend $5k for a state-of-the-art box to run expensive software when it will be obsolete in 2 years? Why not let the vendor handle all of that? The cell phone companies have been looking at that model too, apparently - e.g. $100 for a netbook if you sign up for a 2 year data plan. I see that MS is looking at ARM for its server farms - http://www.techeye.n...-chips-in-servers Presumably they're not running Windows, but MS knows enough to chase new markets (even if they're often years late). The coming years could be great for breaking MS's Windows stranglehold; or it could be the beginning of the end of "personal" computing with everything locked up on remote servers. We'll see. Cheers, Scott.
Post #324,715 by drook 4/16/10 9:54:09 AM Reply	Whaddaya mean "looking at"? I've been seeing netbook deals like that for at least a year. Radio Shack has had one version or another in the display case under the cash register as long as I can remember, and the price always says, "With 2-year plan." -- Drew
Post #324,717 by Another Scott 4/16/10 11:18:14 AM Reply	Isn't that what I said? :-) By "looking at" I mean they're playing around with that model. They haven't shifted that way in a big way - when was the last time you saw a TV ad for such a netbook package from a phone company? They hoped to ride the netbook wave, but didn't really push it. At least I saw little sign of it. If the 3G iPads take off, they won't have much choice but to try harder. Cheers, Scott.
Post #324,726 by drook 4/16/10 1:04:34 PM Reply	Roger, all clear -- Drew
Post #325,552 by Another Scott 5/2/10 1:28:13 PM Reply	Pixlr http://www.pixlr.com/ It looks interesting, but is unusably slow for me on my S12 netbook when playing around with a 36xx x 27xx jpeg from my Canon S10IS. It's Flash based. :-( (via Kevin Drum - http://motherjones.c.../05/working-cloud ) Cheers, Scott.
Post #324,698 by folkert 4/15/10 10:34:01 PM Reply	Also, to address the OLD ARM... Yes it was a delightful single threaded processor for embedded system. Worked wonderfully well with cooperative multi-tasking. They moved it to a Multi-Threaded Multi-tasking and effectively broke it in half and threw out the good part. They've come a long way and purchased some really good bits from certain companies... (purchased outright not licensed). And they have paired up with what seems to be the right people for building and chipset design for it. I've been waiting for ARM to take over the embedded/smal device market and it is. I'm now waiting for the power to performance and cheapness to take over in the Data Center. As its the ripe time to pluck the x86 arch and step on it. Once the National Laboratories start using them in workstations and clusters... I am sure they'll catch on. Laptops are just a natural for them now. Who cares about flash. (Yes I know its huge, but its also HUGE and BLOATED and a processor _HOG_) Just wait a while longer, ARM with Multi-Core processors will make a huge dent in Intel's margin or dominance. AMD/ATI and nVidia seem to be playing along with ARM.
Post #324,705 by crazy 4/16/10 12:27:00 AM Reply	He says it well http://arstechnica.c.../apples-wager.ars
Post #324,708 by drook 4/16/10 2:57:12 AM Reply	Too many developers are too pragmatic for him to be right First lots of developers hate Microsoft, but hold their noses every day and keep working on Windows because that's where the money is. Second, there is a constant stream of new developers who weren't burned by whatever pissed off the last generation. Using MS as the example again, how many times in the last 20 years have you heard some 20-something say that this time is different, and you're just being paranoid if you think there is anything nefarious behind MS's latest actions? -- Drew
Post #324,714 by crazy 4/16/10 9:22:35 AM Reply	Good points Still doesn't mean they get my $$ for this particular device. Of course, they don't care. I'll enjoy watching the Linux alternatives popping up.
Post #324,723 by SpiceWare 4/16/10 12:02:20 PM Reply	very true I like my job, but not the Windows aspect. Our software uses OpenGL, so there is a small chance it could end up on the Mac. It was originally run on Unix workstations, but all the customers have migrated to Windows and the current version is run via Hummingbird's Exceed (X Server for Windows). We're pretty close to releasing the first Windows native version.

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