A false idea of 'natural' IMhO. Common___

Post #32,403 by Ashton 3/15/02 6:08:48 PM Reply	A false idea of 'natural' IMhO. Common____but false. It may indeed mean - giving up a prevailing notion of ~ I/Me against the world, and in a zero-sum game: desiring to 'own' as much as there is, no matter if it comes from You or Many or even: All the Rest.. Even in USSR (as moffitt would be the more competent judge) - the usual ego strokes went to superior performers, whether Aces in the military or doctors able to extract a pineal gland through the nose. After all, superior personal performance indeed adds to the society's performance. But at about that point.. the conditioning of which you speak - entered into a quite uncommunal distribution of Good goods, apparatchiks and all the rest now common knowledge. That-all was nothing to do with communism; a REAL Red-Herring, that! Trying to write a New Rx to replace the above focus of infantile-ego which you deem 'natural' - ever fails, for reasons mentioned before: we aren't even grown-up enough to understand "'sharing' of a toy" let alone a planet. It is a Western religious (and religion-inspired) notion that you present as virtually genetic and immutable. I demur. Small experiments all along, demonstrate to my satisfaction that - it is merely a mindset of long habit, reinforced precisely as Mike's little nursery story eloquently illustrates to a T. Ashton PS and related: no wonder! 'Christianity' is ever given lip-service by the multitudes, yet practised only by infinitesimal numbers (and quietly) who might have understood.. what it was that Jesus was preaching. Marx said starkly the function of That kind of 'religion'... Result: The truth shall make you free.. But first.. it will piss you off. Gloria Steinem
Post #32,527 by mmoffitt 3/17/02 6:55:48 PM Reply	The most difficult idea from Marx for me to understand. "Religion is the opiate of the people." When I was much younger (a teenager) and had the typical myopic Western view that religion=Christianity, I struggled with this for a long time. From what I knew of Marx and what I knew of Christianity, I could not understand Marx's quasi-hatred of religion. For me, what Christ said and what Marx said were much easier to reconcile than what Christ said and what Western (particularly Murican) capitalism said. What I came up with then, and as of yet I have no better explanation, is that Christians are good to their fellow man in order to be rewarded after death. Even if one follows what Christ said, the motivation for being a good member of society remains self-interest. This is appauling to the true communist. I realize now that this is not the sole reason for the above famous observation, but I remain convinced that it is morally reprehensible to be a good member of society only because of some promised future gain for one's self. As usual, you are dead-on about the corruption of the idea of a communist state in the CCCP. I've often wondered how things might have worked out had Trotsky, instead of Stalin, ascended to power.
Post #32,589 by boxley 3/18/02 12:25:12 PM Reply	Opiate of the people This statement voices the obvious from a geopolitikal prospective. The religion as practiced in Eaurope and the Russia pre 1917 was a state sponsored religion that with pagentry and drama allowed the little folk to let off steam. I am not taking anything away from a "true believer" but speaking from an organizational standpoint. Upheavals and wars were tempered by the messages from the pulpit which allowed acceptance of pain and suffering much like taking opium does. I dont think he spoke of it hatefully, just recognising a fact on the ground. thanx, bill The Bill of Rights, Void where ptohibited.
Post #32,687 by mhuber 3/18/02 11:56:17 PM Reply	Was Marx a Just Say No devotee? The usual understanding of the quote assumes that Marx considered opiates a bad thing. I don't know whether he did or not. In any case, tame religion does pretty much the same things to a population that opiates do to organisms. * the word "tame" is a reference to Narnia, as in "not a tame lion". ---- United we stand Divided we dominate the planet without really trying
Post #32,675 by Ashton 3/18/02 8:29:11 PM Reply	Yes, that aspect of Christianity (as most often practised) - is well noticed by most everyone in the world - except Christians. It is then (after it's mentioned) fashionable to become all defensive about an imagined criticism of 'Jesus' - it couldn't possibly be a criticism of the poverty of comprehension of His followers, now could it? The Kingdom of God is all around you, yet you will not see it -- was the quote (from Timothy? IIRC) - in one of Jos. Campbell's talks with Bill Moyers. The 'esoteric wing' of Christianity 'gets it' similarly to all the much older religions' esoteric wings. The common folk are in it for What's In It for Me\ufffd [now and later]. And it is the common folk who are, by def'n, 'that infamous LCD' - those who love being Righteous and sanctimonious; preferably backed by Large Weapons. As in March 2002: as The Bulletin of The Atomic Scientists' clock was recently moved up to 5 Minutes Before Midnight. deja vu... deja vu... Are all the Original thinkers now dead, to be found only in textbooks? Ashton

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