But it'll be enforced by the IRS:"Health care by Turbo Tax."

Post #323,208 by Another Scott 3/21/10 8:51:06 PM Reply	But it'll be enforced by the IRS:"Health care by Turbo Tax." I don't think that I've heard so many disingenuous, deceitful comments in a long time. Sensenbrenner tried to equate criticism of Bush's abuse of Signing Statements with Obama's figleaf of an Executive Order (which merely says that the law is the law) for Stupak. Sensenbrenner's a bright man, but that's a deeply stupid argument. Something like "Health Care by Turbo Tax" was some other Republican's version of a pithy statement about the dangers of having the IRS involved in this legislation. Yeah, the bill isn't perfect and more needs to be done (e.g. ending the anti-trust exemption), but it's an important step forward. I'd like to think that the Republicans who fought this bill with their deceptive tactics would be chastened and disillusioned, but I don't think that's possible. I'm not seeing it. http://www.talkingpo..._it.php?ref=fpblg I'd be shocked if they don't try to raise a fuss in the Senate to drag out the argument. Yet again, Nancy got it done. She's an amazing Speaker. Cheers, Scott.
Post #323,211 by beepster 3/21/10 11:40:17 PM Reply	You know...thats the statement that bugs me the most. "Yeah, the bill isn't perfect and more needs to be done (e.g. ending the anti-trust exemption), but it's an important step forward." I watched all the democrats today that were waffling say versions of the same thing...along the lines of "I don't really like this bill...it doesn't have what I want..but we just >have< to do something." So now we've done something...and we'll see just what it is that we've done. Also interesting is that somehow I've inherited all of the talking points...no matter..getting used to that round here. Well, now at least congress can get busy polishing this 3rd. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #323,212 by rcareaga 3/22/10 12:01:45 AM Reply	Yeah, screw this "base camp" shit If I can't make it to the summit of Everest in a single bound, well, I'm not even going to leave home.
Post #323,214 by beepster 3/22/10 12:30:17 AM Reply	Right because someone DARE to think differently than you, they can't POSSIBLY have a point. How about the possibility of at least trying to gain a footing at the base of the mountain, to use your analogy? Nope, we're gonna load up our packs so that we can't POSSIBLY get to the top..then when someone points that out we'll just yell at them and tell them that they're distracting us...and thats what makes our packs feel so damned heavy. Its all >their< fault. And now, you can continue to assume my thoughts and attribute to me some more statements from Palihannirandbaugh...you seem to enjoy it. To your smugness...cheers! I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #323,221 by boxley 3/22/10 9:32:49 AM Reply	so how much is your cadillac health plan gonna cost you? or do you get to retire before the draconian raxes kick in? Around here they have already doubled the deductibles which were high to begin with in anticipation of the legislation with more changes to come If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #323,224 by beepster 3/22/10 10:41:06 AM Reply	Trade it in for a Hyundai Cadillacs are for show-offs. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #323,236 by lincoln 3/22/10 2:30:15 PM Reply	My cadillac health plan (via COBRA) currently is $1,032 a month - and that's WITH the 60% federal discount that's set to expire next month. It sure sucks to be married to someone who has a pre-existing condition. Now the insurance company can't deny her insurance, but the sure as hell can price it beyond our affordability. "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Post #323,250 by rcareaga 3/22/10 4:22:17 PM Reply	Re: so how much is your cadillac health plan gonna cost you? My Cadillac plan does not appear to have a place on the showroom floor under the legislation, and I do hope to have retired by January 2018 (although, alas, probably not until around that time). cordially,
Post #323,213 by Another Scott 3/22/10 12:22:03 AM Reply	That one? That statement of opinion bothers you the most? Things that bother me the most are statements like: It's a government takeover of 1/6th of the economy. It's unconstitutional. It's being rammed down our throat. It's full of bribes and kickbacks. Tax dollars will paying for abortions as a result of this bill. Oh, and "death panels". I didn't think you were so sensitive. Um, even the Constitution had to be amended shortly after it was drafted. Cheers, Scott.
Post #323,215 by beepster 3/22/10 12:35:53 AM Reply	Considering who was saying it today yes, it does. People in Congress who , in so many words, were telling me this bill didn't do anything that they wanted it to...but they were gonna vote for it anyway. Don't believe I've used any of your more bothersome phrases... As with many other actions of government, history will now be the judge. Certainly hope it works...the alternative is not palatable. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #323,219 by Another Scott 3/22/10 7:50:27 AM Reply	"In so many words..." I didn't hear that at all.
Post #323,216 by rcareaga 3/22/10 1:16:08 AM Reply	Pure gold from Gingrich I believe the technical term is "tone deaf": But former Republican House speaker Newt Gingrich said Obama and the Democrats will regret their decision to push for comprehensive reform. Calling the bill "the most radical social experiment . . . in modern times," Gingrich said: "They will have destroyed their party much as Lyndon Johnson shattered the Democratic Party for 40 years" with the enactment of civil rights legislation in the 1960s. http://www.washingto...d=ST2010032001699 In other words, if the Democrats of the 1960s had only had someone of Newt's sagacity to guide them, they would have defeated the civil rights legislation and held the South! And now they're making the same mistake with healthcare reform! Because after all, we can certainly every one of us agree that the repeal of Jim Crow laws was an unmitigated disaster for America. A colleague of mine related his experience on a jury in a civil case. The plaintiff's attorney made his closing argument, following which the other attorney rose and said "The defense cannot possibly summarize its case more persuasively than Mr. Wilson has just done." The jury found against the plaintiff (whereupon, my informant reports, attorney Wilson sank his head into his folded arms and wept in court). Obama gave the Democratic caucus a pep talk yesterday exhorting the members to vote for what was right rather than for the purpose of clinging to office at all costs. Gingrich sounds to me like he's making a bizarro-world version of the same case. cordially,
Post #323,237 by lincoln 3/22/10 2:32:51 PM Reply	Republicans vowing to repeal it And the Democrats' response needs to be, what do you want to repeal first? Not discriminating against children with pre-existing conditions? Allowing children to stay on their parents insurance until they're 26? Insurance companies not being allowed to drop you if you get sick or capping the amount they'll pay if you have a catastrophic illness? Which ones are Republicans against? http://www.dailykos....9165/-Repeal-What "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Post #323,241 by boxley 3/22/10 3:35:31 PM Reply	not a repealable issue at this point If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #323,245 by lincoln 3/22/10 3:53:52 PM Reply	Re: not a repealable issue at this point Then why are they all saying that they will repeal it when they regain the majority in 2010? "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Post #323,248 by rcareaga 3/22/10 4:18:17 PM Reply	Regaining the majority Apparently not merely a majority, but a veto-proof majority. That's a lot of chickens. cordially,
Post #323,255 by boxley 3/22/10 4:49:33 PM Reply	no only that but the public wont buy a repeal there is enough anger over the current plan to overthrow a lot of incumbents a repeal would light up the other side If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #323,264 by Another Scott 3/22/10 6:22:39 PM Reply	It's a talking point to stay in the news. Just like these AG lawsuits, etc., etc. It doesn't matter if they can't do what they claim they're trying to do - that's not the point. They want to keep their "base" riled up and stay in the news for the upcoming elections. The GOP is no longer a reality-based party. Trying to view what they say through a reality filter will only show a void. ;-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #323,265 by boxley 3/22/10 6:49:36 PM Reply	dont look at dem polls 10th amendment may allow states to opt out and with obama polls in the toilet lets wait a few months before you start reading too much reality into politics. If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #323,269 by Another Scott 3/22/10 7:53:31 PM Reply	I think the mandate will survive just fine. Can the states opt out of the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance (OASDI) program (commonly known as Social Security)? "America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009" is also a national program; national participation is required. The mandate isn't unconstitutional. http://www.healthref...health-insurance/ Ken Cuccinelli (Virginia's new attorney general) is a perfect example of an AG who lives to be in the news, no matter how much time or money he wastes in the process. He's a wingnut too - http://en.wikipedia....ki/Ken_Cuccinelli They can file their suits - they're not going to end the program's requirements (and benefits). Obama's and the Democrats' poll numbers are nothing to worry about. It's the Republicans that should be worried (and the election is a long way off). http://dailykos.com/weeklytrends (the polling is done by Research 2000 - a reputable outfit). FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #323,275 by rcareaga 3/22/10 8:59:07 PM Reply	You strive in vain, Another Scott... attempting to appeal to the better angels of the two Bs' judgment. It ain't gonna happen: those angels don't exist. But I applaud anew your unfailingly courteous and reasonable responses to their hallucinations. cordially,
Post #323,280 by beepster 3/22/10 10:40:43 PM Reply	Interesting a post is made regarding AG suits that was listed in CNN, MSNBC and the like...and commentary made about whether or not they have legs... then a good natured opinion on why one thinks they may not be successful... why..thats good natured internet discussion... then you came along... you're so darned >chipper<... (darned those nightly news hallucinations...must have been the brown acid...I knew Wolf Blitzer couldn't be a >real< name) I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #323,278 by boxley 3/22/10 10:05:36 PM Reply	daily kos polls isnt tht like the cia polls in brezhnev era? you as a gummint employee should know better of course states can opt out of social security. PERS ring a bell? If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #323,282 by Another Scott 3/22/10 11:00:57 PM Reply	Not the same thing. You can take the R2k poll results or leave them. That's fine. States cannot opt out of Social Security. Some state and local government retirement systems were separate from Social Security, for a time. Federal employees under CSRS did not pay into it. CSRS closed to new Federal employees on January 1, 1987. CSRS existed before Social Security. CSRS is a defined benefit system. http://www.opm.gov/R...RE/CSRS/INDEX.ASP CSRS was replaced by FERS. People under FERS pay into Social Security. Around 50% of CalPERS members pay into Social Security. http://www.calpers.c...facts/general.pdf (7 page .pdf) If you had pointed to the 51st state of West Nebraska and said - "You're Wrong! People in West Nebraska doesn't pay into Social Security!" - you might have a point. ;-) Cuccinelli isn't saying he's going to sue the US because Virginia would be prevented from creating a defined benefit program for state employees. He's saying he will sue because he thinks the Act violates the 9th and 10th Amendments rights of Virginians. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #323,283 by beepster 3/22/10 11:28:59 PM Reply	Difference as healthcare is state legislated at the insurance company level (the law did not free providers to cross those boundaries), forcing participation at the national level into state legislated providers may be a problem. The coops may alleviate this...but I don't believe its as cut and dry as you think. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #323,284 by Another Scott 3/22/10 11:39:44 PM Reply	AFAIK, states can't opt out of Medicare. Yeah, we'll see.
Post #323,294 by boxley 3/23/10 8:46:47 AM Reply	have a link http://doa.alaska.gov/drb/ when I was a state employee I paid zero social security, only paid pers. There goes your mandate If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #323,303 by Another Scott 3/23/10 9:29:16 AM Reply	State employee ==/== All citizens of the state. HTH.
Post #323,306 by boxley 3/23/10 9:40:48 AM Reply	mandate==all no exceptions HTH If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #323,308 by Another Scott 3/23/10 9:44:33 AM Reply	...
Post #323,286 by rcareaga 3/22/10 11:51:16 PM Reply	you and beep It delights me to watch you writhe. cordially,
Post #323,295 by beepster 3/23/10 8:48:44 AM Reply	you must be on acid as you are obviously seeing things that just aren't there. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #323,296 by boxley 3/23/10 8:48:44 AM Reply	gay porn? gross If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #323,252 by rcareaga 3/22/10 4:36:45 PM Reply	A dire threat from John McCain Democrats shouldn't expect much cooperation from Republicans the rest of this year, Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) warned Monday. "There will be no cooperation for the rest of the year," McCain said during an interview Monday on an Arizona radio affiliate. "They have poisoned the well in what they've done and how they've done it." http://thehill.com/b...rest-of-this-year Mercy! However will we survive when the GOP withholds its support? How, indeed, will we even notice? cordially,
Post #323,256 by boxley 3/22/10 4:50:40 PM Reply	cmon, this legislation was truly bi-partisan in opposition :-) If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #323,258 by beepster 3/22/10 5:00:45 PM Reply	We'll see if the announced state AG's lawsuits have legs. As for doing without R support...they don't need it. But they've got to get all those "blue dogs" in line. It should only take a few billion here or there... I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #323,260 by boxley 3/22/10 5:02:49 PM Reply	Re: We'll see if the announced state AG's lawsuits have legs well the senate bill does transfer monies directly to private health insurance companies. That may be a "taking" without compensation. If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #323,357 by mhuber 3/24/10 2:22:38 AM Reply	If there had ever been the slightest illusion that there was any possible way to compromise with the Republicans, that might make sense. The bill could have read, in it's entirety: Commies and terrorists are bad. Ronald Wilson Reagan shall rise on the third day to judge the living and the dead, and George W. Bush is retroactively declared to have been a Democrat all along. Salute the Flag and stay healthy, Dudes! and every Republican would have said it was socialism. When you declare your position as absolutely NO no matter what, you lose a certain amount of credibility as a reasonable negotiating partner. --------------------------------------- Why, yes, I did give up something for lent. I gave up making sense.

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