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New Let me summarize.
We can't raise taxes on the rich because they'll move their money elsewhere.

We can't raise taxes on the rich because they won't work as hard and the economy will suffer.

We can't raise taxes on the rich because they'll hire accountants and find all the loopholes.

We can't raise taxes on the rich because it will hurt the poor and the middle class because they'll just pass them on.

We can't raise taxes on the rich because the poor don't pay income taxes and that's unfair.

Did I miss anything?

I guess the only answer is to say that if someone earns over $1M a year they should be exempt from all taxes. I guess we'd be living in a paradise then. Like Russia, or maybe Somalia.

:-/

There's a lot of history that tells us that each of those suppositions is wrong.

For example, Krugman, from 2006 in Rolling Stone - http://www.rollingst...th_transfer/print

[...]

Finally, there's the government's most direct method of affecting incomes: taxes. In this arena, Bush has made sure that the rich pay lower taxes than they have in decades. According to the latest estimates, once the Bush tax cuts have taken full effect, more than a third of the cash will go to people making more than $500,000 a year — a mere 0.8 percent of the population.

It's easy to get confused about the Bush tax cuts. For one thing, they are designed to confuse. The core of the Bush policy involves cutting taxes on high incomes, especially on the income wealthy Americans receive from capital gains and dividends. You might say that the Bush administration favors people who live off their wealth over people who have a job. But there are some middle-class "sweeteners" thrown in, so the administration can point to a few ordinary American families who have received significant tax cuts.

Furthermore, the administration has engaged in a systematic campaign of disinformation about whose taxes have been cut. Indeed, one of Bush's first actions after taking office was to tell the Treasury Department to stop producing estimates of how tax cuts are distributed by income class — that is, information on who gained how much. Instead, official reports on taxes under Bush are textbook examples of how to mislead with statistics, presenting a welter of confusing numbers that convey the false impression that the tax cuts favor middle-class families, not the wealthy.

In reality, only a few middle-class families received a significant tax cut under Bush. But every wealthy American — especially those who live off of stock earnings or their inheritance — got a big tax cut. To picture who gained the most, imagine the son of a very wealthy man, who expects to inherit $50 million in stock and live off the dividends. Before the Bush tax cuts, our lucky heir-to-be would have paid about $27 million in estate taxes and contributed 39.6 percent of his dividend income in taxes. Once Bush's cuts go into effect, he could inherit the whole estate tax-free and pay a tax rate of only fifteen percent on his stock earnings. Truly, this is a very good time to be one of the have mores.

It's worth noting that Bush doesn't simply favor the upper class: It's the upper-upper class he cares about. That became clear last fall, when the House and Senate passed rival tax-cutting bills. (What were they doing cutting taxes yet again in the face of a huge budget deficit and an expensive war? Never mind.) The Senate bill was devoted to providing relief to middle-class wage earners: According to the Tax Policy Center, two-thirds of the Senate tax cut would have gone to people with incomes of between $100,000 and $500,000 a year. Those making more than $1 million a year would have received only eight percent of the cut.

The House bill, by contrast, focused on extending tax cuts on capital gains and dividends. More than forty percent of the House cuts would have flowed to the $1 million-plus group; only thirty percent to the 100K to 500K taxpayers.

The White House favored the House bill — and the final, reconciled measure wound up awarding a quarter of the benefits to America's millionaires. That, in a nutshell, is the politics of income inequality under Bush.

Oh, one last thing: What about the claim that the Bush tax cuts did wonders for economic growth? In fact, job creation has been much slower under Bush than under Clinton, and overall growth since 2003 is largely the result of the huge housing boom, which has more to do with low interest rates than with taxes. But the biggest irony of all is that the real boom — the one in the 1990s — followed tax changes that were the reverse of Bush's policies. Clinton raised taxes on the rich, and the economy prospered.

A generation ago the distribution of income in the United States didn't look all that different from that of other advanced countries. We had more poverty, largely because of the unresolved legacy of slavery. But the gap between the economic elite and the middle class was no larger in America than it was in Europe.

Today, we're completely out of line with other advanced countries. The share of income received by the top 0.1 percent of Americans is twice the share received by the corresponding group in Britain, and three times the share in France. These days, to find societies as unequal as the United States you have to look beyond the advanced world, to Latin America. And if that comparison doesn't frighten you, it should.

[...]


HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
New you only need one line, raise taxes on the rich all you want
you wont collect a dime more than you get now because rich people write the tax laws
that help you any?
If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
New Didn't seem to be a problem under Clinton. Why is that?
New more words please :-)
If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
New Ok.
The arguments seem to me to be:

1) Raising taxes always destroys incentives, always ultimately reduces revenue, and is always counter-productive because people will (rather than doing what makes the most sense to raise their incomes, make their businesses more successful, plan for their retirement) do whatever is necessary to keep from paying any tax increase. They'll lobby congress; they'll invest in tax shelters; they'll move their money off-shore; they'll quit.

2) The conclusive evidence from the Reagan and Clinton years is that one can have strong economic growth, reductions in unemployment and increases in employment, substantial reductions in the deficits, and increasing incomes for the average working person, even when taxes on the upper income groups are increased.

The conclusive evidence from the 2000s is that cutting taxes on the wealthy does not increase economic growth over the long term. It does not raise average incomes. It does not increase job growth. It does not reduce the federal deficit or the federal debt. It does not force the government to shrink. It does little except increase wealth and income disparities to levels comparable to banana republics.

So which is it? Is #1 correct, or is #2 correct? They can't both be right. Either the ideology under #1 is wrong, or the facts of #2 are wrong.

I vote for #1 being wrong. If you think #2 is wrong, then you need to present evidence. I've presented evidence why #2 is correct.

IOW, those of us in the reality-based community are unpersuaded that the last 30 years of "voodoo economics" was an insufficient test. The supply-siders' rhetoric has been shown to be incoherent and wrong. (E.g. they don't care about deficits even though they talk about them incessantly when a Democrat is president - http://yglesias.thin...the-deficit-2.php ) Clap Louder is unpersuasive. http://www.balloon-j.../?page_id=28596#C

It is possible, and necessary, to increase taxes on the wealthy to begin solving many of our economic problems.

HTH. ;-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New 2. is badly stated
reagan cut taxes, bush1 imposed them and clinton cut taxes but more importantly clinton reigned in spending, a better republican than Bush2 ever was. Please restate your choices in a more plausable manner.

Taxing the rich is nescessary. Getting people making above 101k a year to pay paroll taxes is also mandatory.

Thinking that America's financial answer is a wealth transfer from the people to the state is wrong.
If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
New Like how?
How will "taxing the rich" not be interpreted as "a wealth transfer from the people to the state"? I've never seen the one without people claiming the other.
--

Drew
New Your version is worse. ;-)
Reagan cut taxes, then raised taxes when he (and the Congress) saw the cuts were blowing a hole in the budget.

http://krugman.blogs...eagan-taxes-jobs/
http://en.wikipedia....ility_Act_of_1982

The tax increases didn't hurt the economy and the deficit started to come down.

Clinton raised the top marginal rates (up to 39.6% for individuals, and up to 35% for corporations) and the deficit changed to a surplus (yes, it really was a surplus). http://en.wikipedia....ation_Act_of_1993 The economy under Clinton was the largest peace-time expansion in our history.

I think my version stands. FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
     pretty charts on the federal money woes - (boxley) - (14)
         Heh. - (Another Scott) - (13)
             okay, I get it - (boxley) - (12)
                 CATO? - (Another Scott) - (11)
                     adressed in the above discussion, CBO projections are always - (boxley) - (10)
                         Hanging out at CATO will shrivel your few remaining - (Ashton) - (9)
                             they were beating meat on main st at the same time - (boxley) - (8)
                                 Let me summarize. - (Another Scott) - (7)
                                     you only need one line, raise taxes on the rich all you want - (boxley) - (6)
                                         Didn't seem to be a problem under Clinton. Why is that? -NT - (Another Scott) - (5)
                                             more words please :-) -NT - (boxley) - (4)
                                                 Ok. - (Another Scott) - (3)
                                                     2. is badly stated - (boxley) - (2)
                                                         Like how? - (drook)
                                                         Your version is worse. ;-) - (Another Scott)

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