I wasn't there, so I have to go on reports.

Post #320,466 by Another Scott 1/23/10 1:55:52 PM Reply	I wasn't there, so I have to go on reports. Like this one: http://en.wikipedia....r_Mutallab#Attack Passengers and crew aboard the plane said Abdulmutallab spent about 20 minutes in the bathroom as it approached Detroit, and then covered himself with a blanket after returning to his seat. They then heard popping noises, smelled a foul odor, and some saw AbdulmutallabÂs trouser leg and the wall of the plane on fire. Fellow passenger Jasper Schuringa, a Dutch film director, jumped on Abdulmutallab and subdued him as flight attendants used fire extinguishers to douse the flames.[93] Abdulmutallab was taken toward the front of the airplane cabin, was seen to have lost his trousers due to the fire, and had burns on his legs.[94] When asked by a flight attendant what he had in his pocket, he replied: ÂExplosive device.Â The device consisted of a six-inch (15-cm) packet which was sewn into his underwear[1][8][95] containing the explosive powder PETN, which became a plastic explosive when mixed[96] with the high explosive triacetone triperoxide (TAPN) (the same two explosives that were used by Richard Reid in 2001[97][98]), and a syringe containing acid liquid.[99]. Abdulmutallab created the explosive by mixing PETN with TAPN and other ingredients.[99] If things happened as described, then having a TATP detector at the security checkpoint wouldn't have helped. They'd have to check for the constituents, somehow. He was doing stuff in the restroom and was able to start a fire. My point was that having the crew and passengers jump him was well and good, but if things had gone as they might have, it would have been too late. PETN is a dangerous explosive - http://www.globalsec...-nitrate-petn.htm It's been around since at least WWI, so the new problem isn't the material, it's the people. How one figures out the solution to the "people problem" is an obvious challenge... :-( PETN was a component of the explosive that brought down PanAm 103. I don't disagree that there's a lot of "security theater" going on. Cheers, Scott.
Post #320,468 by drook 1/23/10 2:11:29 PM Reply	I still disagree This isn't even a matter of degree. He had the components. He tried to mix the components. He tried to detonate the mixture. It didn't work. No one can make it work. Not in an airplane bathroom. It's useless to try to protect against "if things had gone as they might have". Because no, they might not have. They could not have. This scenario is not possible. It can't happen. You can't defend against the impossible. We might as well try to develop and install wizard detectors to prevent someone brining magic aboard the airplane, because he might cast a fireball. -- Drew
Post #320,477 by Another Scott 1/23/10 4:49:50 PM Reply	Ok, but "impossible" is a very strong word... It has been used to blow up stuff with people inside. I'm not sure that it's impossible to make in a bathroom. http://en.wikipedia....rrorist_incidents FWIW. Just to be clear, I agree with the feeling that many have that we're paying far too much attention to airplane incidents and potential incidents on planes. Actual terrorist incidents against airplanes have decreased since the 1960s. Reinforced cockpit doors means that passengers can't take over the plane anymore. A 9/11-type attack can't happen again unless a pilot goes nuts (and no technology will prevent that). What's to keep someone from doing nasty things outside airport security? :-/ At least 2 incidents with commercial aircraft crashing were (arguably) caused by pilot suicide: http://en.wikipedia....yptAir_Flight_990 http://en.wikipedia....ilkAir_Flight_185 I'm drifting, so I'll quit now. Cheers, Scott.
Post #320,482 by drook 1/23/10 5:00:53 PM Reply	Proves my point * Richard Reid of al-Qaeda -- failed to detonate * 7 July 2005 London bombings -- assembled off-site * On September 5, 2006, homemade TATP -- found before use * On September 4, 2007, homemade TATP -- found before use * The 2006 transatlantic aircraft plot -- plan never carried out * Front national anti-radars (FNAR) -- blew himself up trying to make it * The Northwest Airlines Flight 253 -- failed to detonate This stuff is hard to make even under controlled conditions. Ask the FNAR guy with no hands. It can not be made in an airline restroom. Guarding against it, even "just in case", is a waste of time and money, and just serves as a boogeyman to scare people into doing what they're told. -- Drew
Post #320,491 by folkert 1/23/10 10:01:36 PM Reply	GRAAHHHH! I just so wanna go off over this. I agree with you. I actually discussed things with a Chemical engineer. To make the stuff requires a STILL conditions to get it to work. Remind me when was the last time you had a completely still and stable airline ride?
Post #320,494 by mhuber 1/23/10 10:17:43 PM Reply	Security by Turbulence! It works.
Post #320,502 by Ashton 1/24/10 4:42:52 AM Reply	Yeah, there won't be many concocting Nitro either..
Post #320,499 by pwhysall 1/24/10 4:00:49 AM Reply	Defending against specific tactics is a losing game. We need to stop obsessing about individual technologies and components and stop these people boarding the planes, which is down to good old boring, not-exciting, no-good-headlines intelligence and police work.
Post #320,504 by folkert 1/24/10 10:12:53 AM Reply	Oh... come now... You expect them to do real work? Plus real work doesn't make the SHEEPLE FEEL SAFER! Only the showy work like they are doing now... that makes us feel like cattle being pushed through the pens towards slaughter. It is sort of like Yosemite National park and rock slides... Rock Slides are going to happen... the earth is moving and the Granite is buoyant and bouncing on the Magma... People have continually asked for a few decades (especially after a tragic rock slide) what we are going to do to curb the rock slides that drop 1,000 to 400,000 tons of solid granite about once a week. The answer: Be careful when you are walking in the Wilderness!
Post #320,513 by Ashton 1/24/10 3:18:01 PM Reply	Ergo: hire Temple Grandin; she does cattle Righteous..ly (Proving somewhat that, 'autism' is very-likely a feature! masquerading as a bug (?) I have no solutions for revealing Intent, and the core of the problem of sabotage is: Technology. Always it is far- far- Simpler to disable/confound or destroy any 'machine' (homo-sap mental construct of a plan or physical device) than to create the complex one-off gadget. n! Rulez all these pipe-dreams. MTBF gives a clue to the gross consequences, in a physical machine. Methinks that Insanely-Great Plans also need a MTBF #. And while assembling pipe dreams, the pseudo-science of 'psychology' needs to get some bids out for a method or two of ID-ing persons -- candidates for any position of great Power -- who are apt to resemble the plot, ingredients and er, near-fatal synergies of the Cheney Shogunate: 1) An anti-intellectual individual, repeatedly assessed as being "the most uncurious person I've ever met". One such whose walking-swagger is matched by congruent mental processes / the stubbornness of callow youth + a mind to match. Shake n'bake with a sidekick -- 2) Able to reliably manipulate a vain swaggerer via flattery and plain old tested Göbbelsian propaganda techniques -- after initially parlaying a position of "finding a Veep" (in this case) into just cutting-out 300M middle-men and naming self. The micro-Cheney, base unit of anti-Modesty, forevermore. And like that. We gots all that hindsight; yet the next charlatan or charlatan-pair shall have morphed beyond the above simple case of the naif successfully seduced by his Iago. Similar situation with the next bomber creature: how does one do an attitude inventory on a potential> even probable sociopath/psychotic?? Beats me. Welcome to Chaos Critter Selection 101 / the 21st Century's least understood non-process. But all the rest is ... just talk.
Post #320,515 by folkert 1/24/10 3:46:44 PM 1/24/10 4:10:06 PM Reply	In any case... People are more worried about getting the last bit of toothpaste out of the tube. A $1.70 tube of tooth paste. That lasts about a month. They will spend $30 (plus $12 shipping and handling) for a device that "automagically" extracts the last bit ... You lose about $0.01 of toothpaste per tube with out it. So, lets see, at 1 cent per month... in $42 for the device, not to mention the difficulty of mounting it on the wall... at a minimum... only about 80 years 6 months for ROI. What a deal. What a deal! That (minds like that) is what we have to placate and most politicians know this. Edited by folkert Jan. 24, 2010, 04:10:06 PM EST Expand All History
Post #320,531 by mhuber 1/25/10 12:19:44 PM Reply	Already have that test Anybody who can get through a modern presidential campaign needs to be under serious psychiatric observation, and probably face-tattooed "Do Not Follow" in case they escape the facility. The system seems to have failed last time - the current President seems almost sane. I can only think of two systems that are better optimizations for selecting the worst available leader. Monarchy and revolution. Neither of those is entirely foolproof. England had a really good king (Aelfred the Great) in the 900's. But he was the seventh son, so nobody expected him to be king. And Vaclev Havel - wtf? A poet and actual decent human being running a successful revolution? Seriously, wtf?
Post #320,543 by drook 1/25/10 4:09:50 PM Reply	Like they say Democracy is the worst possible way of running a country, except for everything else that's ever been tried. As your examples point out, the nuanced truth of that saying is that any system will occasionally produce good leaders, and occasionally produce bad ones. The test is which system produces which kind more often. -- Drew
Post #320,505 by boxley 1/24/10 12:43:50 PM Reply	teh plods? they never catch anyone of their own accord only if someone rats them out and with the alkida folks, few and far between If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #320,519 by Mycroft_Holmes_Iv 1/24/10 7:17:12 PM Reply	So? Fly naked?
Post #320,532 by boxley 1/25/10 12:45:26 PM Reply	start atheist airlines If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)

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