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New Is he delusional or is he just a pathological liar?
Both?
Emphasis mine.
WASHINGTON - President Obama rejected in an interview Tuesday the criticism that he has compromised too much in order to secure health-care reform legislation, challenging his critics to identify any "gap" between what he campaigned on last year and what Congress is on the verge of passing.

"Nowhere has there been a bigger gap between the perceptions of compromise and the realities of compromise than in the health-care bill," Obama said in an Oval Office interview with The Washington Post about his legislative record this year. "Every single criteria for reform I put forward is in this bill."


http://www.msnbc.msn...-washington_post/

This is almost too easy.

"First, we'll take on the drug and insurance companies and hold them accountable for the prices they charge and the harm they cause... And then we'll tell the pharmaceutical companies, 'Thanks but no thanks for overpriced drugs'. Drugs that cost twice as much here as they do in Europe and Canada and Mexico. We'll let Medicare negotiate for lower prices. We'll stop drug companies from blocking generic drugs that are just as effective and far less expensive. We'll allow the safe reimportation of low-cost drugs from countries like Canada."


http://www.huffingto...ses_n_254833.html
New ....
waiting for nother...can't criticize BO...he's great!
I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
New Let me know when the full transcript is available.
(I hate to disappoint...)

Criteria =/= Every single policy proposal.

http://www.whitehous.../health-care/plan was what he wanted in February 2009.

I don't recall him ever saying that he wouldn't sign a bill that didn't have every single item he wanted. In fact, he said:

http://www.whitehous...ssues/Health-Care

Guiding Principles

President Obama is committed to working with Congress to pass comprehensive health reform in his first year in order to control rising health care costs, guarantee choice of doctor, and assure high-quality, affordable health care for all Americans.

* Learn about the fundamental health insurance consumer protections included in reform.

Comprehensive health care reform can no longer wait. Rapidly escalating health care costs are crushing family, business, and government budgets. Employer-sponsored health insurance premiums have doubled in the last 9 years, a rate 3 times faster than cumulative wage increases. This forces families to sit around the kitchen table to make impossible choices between paying rent or paying health premiums. Given all that we spend on health care, American families should not be presented with that choice. The United States spent approximately $2.2 trillion on health care in 2007, or $7,421 per person – nearly twice the average of other developed nations. Americans spend more on health care than on housing or food. If rapid health cost growth persists, the Congressional Budget Office estimates that by 2025, one out of every four dollars in our national economy will be tied up in the health system. This growing burden will limit other investments and priorities that are needed to grow our economy. Rising health care costs also affect our economic competitiveness in the global economy, as American companies compete against companies in other countries that have dramatically lower health care costs.

The President has vowed that the health reform process will be different in his Administration – an open, inclusive, and transparent process where all ideas are encouraged and all parties work together to find a solution to the health care crisis. Working together with members of Congress, doctors and hospitals, businesses and unions, and other key health care stakeholders, the President is committed to making sure we finally enact comprehensive health care reform.

The Administration believes that comprehensive health reform should:

* Reduce long-term growth of health care costs for businesses and government
* Protect families from bankruptcy or debt because of health care costs
* Guarantee choice of doctors and health plans
* Invest in prevention and wellness
* Improve patient safety and quality of care
* Assure affordable, quality health coverage for all Americans
* Maintain coverage when you change or lose your job
* End barriers to coverage for people with pre-existing medical conditions


I don't see public option, or drug reimportation listed there as over-riding goals. Yes, he said he preferred the PO, and he even campaigned on the benefits of it. But I'm not going to conclude he is lying without 1) seeing a full transcript, and 2) understanding his choice of words.

YMMV.

Cheers,
Scott.
New If you'll let me know when your arms get tired. ;0)
New Heh. Transcript here.
http://www.washingto...009122202633.html

[...]

WILSON: On compromise, you've heard criticism from both sides. Tell me your thinking about compromise -- when it's necessary, when -- just the way you've thought about it this year -- to achieved what you've achieved.

OBAMA: Nowhere has there been a bigger gap between the perceptions of compromise and the reality of compromise then in the health care bill. If you look back at the commitments I made during the campaign and the guidelines that I set forward for what I wanted to see in the health care bill, when I made my speech to the Joint Session on September 9, we got 95 percent of what we called for. We said we wanted to make sure we covered 30 million Americans who don't have coverage -- that's in both the House and the Senate bills. We said we wanted to end insurance company abuses, like people with preexisting conditions not being able to get coverage, or sky high out of pocket expenses -- those robust reforms.

Essentially, a patient's bill of rights on steroids is embodied in this bill. We said that we wanted to help small businesses provide health insurance for their workers. Those provisions are in this bill. I said that it had to be deficit neutral. It's not just deficit neutral, according to the CBO, it actually reduces the deficit over the next 20 years by over a trillion dollars. Every serious economist out there says there's not an idea about getting more bang for our health care dollars that has been followed out there that is not embodied in this bill.

So, every single criteria for reform that I put forward is in this bill. It is true that that the Senate version does not have a public option and that has become a source of ideological contention between the left and the right, but I didn't campaign on a public option. I think it is a good idea but as I said on that speech on September 9, it just one small element of a broader reform effort.

So we don't feel that the core elements to help the American people that I campaigned on ¿ and that we've been fighting for all year -- have been compromised in any significant way. Do these pieces of legislation have exactly everything that I'd want? Of course not. But they have the things that are necessary to reduce costs for businesses, families and the government. So the way I generally think about compromise has been that I start with a set of core principles about what it is we're trying to achieve. We work with House and Senate members -- and there are some red lines that can't be crossed from our perspective -- and there are other areas where there are legitimate debates about how to achieve those goals. If someone can show me a different way of getting things done that accomplishes that endpoint, I'm happy to consider those.

But when it comes to health care reform, as the major example, I'm not just grudgingly supporting that bill. I am very enthusiastic about what we've achieved and I would challenge anybody to take a look at what I campaigned on and what we started with at the beginning of the year to find any significant gap from what I said then and hat we've achieved. In fact, I am pleasantly surprised about how well the House and Senate have performed given the complexities of this issue, and the fact that the insurance industry has spent hundreds of millions of dollars opposing this, that we've seen legislation that conforms as much to our core principles as I had hoped.


Not quite as newsworthy as the snippet though, I guess... :-/

Cheers,
Scott.
New Except.. O. and proofreaders really ought to know the word
criterion, eh? when it's a 'singleton'.
New Of course. But it's probably a lost cause.
Like hacker vs. cracker, or pronouncing the "t" in "often", or ...

Sometimes ya gotta grit your teeth and go with the flow to keep your sanity.

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who hopes the new year is treating you well.)
New Definitely delusional.
Considering that the Senate tried to pass that bill (to allow importing of drugs from Canada for pharm. to resell...) McCain co-sponsored (among others) it but it was killed.

Now, McCain is the pathological liar. :-) "I’ve been around here 20-some years. First time I’ve ever seen a member denied an extra minute or two to finish his remarks. … I just haven’t seen it before myself. And I don’t like it. And I think it harms the comity of the Senate not to allow one of our members at least a minute. I’m sure that time is urgent here, but I doubt that it would be that urgent."
New Glenn Greenwald's take
http://www.salon.com...source=newsletter

The drift is bolstered by noted recent stock price increases for the competition-free major monopolies (in some states the Only option is One of these.)

'Course too, your newspaper delivery guy could have bought those shares too, (while sleeping under those fabled bridges) if they accept food stamps for stock. So then -- if Obama persists in rationalizing his absence of direct involvement -- to any effect -- in this sellout, well then

We'll always have the Cheney/Palin ticket to accelerate the final dismantling of any opposition to the Corporatocracy (and the women can deal with their new Third-World status if the bible-thumpers bring back the coat-hangers, as they are threatening. Maybe by castrating a priest or two? Hey.. new martyrs to canonize.

Meanwhile, the entire world is expecting Obama all-alone to rectify wasted Eight Years of the Cheney Shogunate™ of complete incompetence on all levels, undo the results of Murican petulant arrogance towards friend and foe alike (all while fixing a completely impotent Congress via some magic force that straightens warped minds) -- along with imagining Victory (again!) and accomplishing neutralization of the goons in Israel simultaneous with the goons in Iran. And a few dozen other insoluble problems.

Is Obama that Bad or is Murica that thoroughly Fucked .?. a middle-school policy wonk sorta asked.. I fear that my negative outlook on prospects for the Murican future have been even optimistic. It now appears that the words shall become even more hyperbolically ghastly and the unravelment even quicker.

W.P.B.
New "And a few dozen other insoluble problems"
You mean like this: (?)

http://www.wowowow.c...arzenegger-423019

Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown.
New wait till the 75 year draught hits then watch the fun
New In the "thou sayest" bin --

It’s not just climate change sucking up water resources. It’s the huge surge in population; and the resulting surge in agriculture, which is the single largest consumer of water.
The Earth has limits and we are already exceeding them.



Then, after the lawyers ... first we kill all the priests..
'Course too, we can wait for Mother Nature Cthulhu to employ that innocent word, decimation-- surely a Cheneyesque future, That.
(And likely the way the proles will choose by not-choosing.)

"Sentient Beings" ... indeed.
New Nah, a political liar
Here you go Beep.
Enjoying?
I'm sure you'll find many of these type of statements, in all politicians.
Oh well.

EVERYTHING is negotiable, up to a POINT. Simple enough. If you are not willing to negotiate, then you have to be willing to either walk away or kill the other guy.

So, what would you have? He should walk away, and get nothing? Or should he tell the troops to start pointing guns?

I know you'd rather someone work from the outside and point the guns, though, so I doubt you'd have any helpful advise from someone trying to work within the system.
New Thank you
I'm sure you'll find many of these type of statements, in all politicians


Just like everyone else...Chicago style. Yep.
I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
New Heh.
"Working within the system." How'd that work out for the Duma again?
New Silly comparison
Try again.

We are not soviet russia, and if someone is afraid of being sent to the gulag, he's insane.

On the other hand, I didn't say there isn't occasional cases of people disapearing, but we've always had that.
New If not the gulag, maybe Gitmo?
New Hmm
Exactly how many people died in Siberia?
How many at Gitmo?
Dude, you got issues.


He inherited gitmo, and if you think he could wave his magic wand, in poof, it's gone, simply because he's the pres, you are hallucinating. I see forward motion. I have no idea what the constraints are on dealing with the people they currently have there (both the prisoners and the military running it), and I am in no position to judge.
New You tell me. Anyone die at Gitmo?
How about any of the other "secret" prisons? By the way, my last post was tongue-in-cheek. You need a dose of reality and the reality is that the USA has be become the Corporate version of Bolshevik Russia.
New When did you sneak back in?
Didn't we tell the door staff about you?

(Good to see you)
New When he got out of gitmo
He's keeping a low profile.
New Thought I'd see how many were still Big O believers. ;0)
(And thanks)
New Sure, why not
Assume 100 people died in gitmo and other black sites.

I think this is high, not because those bastards wouldn't kill far more, they just aren't good enough to get the right people, and they don't like the hassle when they have to account for killing the wrong people. Not that they get in any real trouble, it's just a pain in the ass. So they tend to keep them alive for as long as possible while hoping to get some info to justify the whole exercise.


You wanna higher? Come up with a bit of supporting info. Yes, every life is sacred (just like every sperm, at least to some people), but the issue here is not that no one is killed via this process, just that it doesn't compare to your example.

So now, with a number of a hundred people, let's assume 90 of them were totally innocent poor bastards who were turned in by their neighbors who wanted revenge over a historical slight. 90%. Yes, I accept that the vast majority of the people held in those prison have done nothing (or at least not a lot) wrong.

Ok, so at this point, I start reading on Soviet history. I may know a bit, but a resfresher never hurts. And then I realize there is simpy no point in continuing.

If your sense of scale is so off that you consider what they did as a historical precedent that compares with what is happening right now, there is no discussion to be had.

100 deaths vs millions of deaths. If you think gitmo will be scaling up and getting worse, then maybe I've missed something. But I doubt it.
New not just gitmo
the industrial prison industry is filled with more filling to come of some of the highest incarceration rates in the world. 4-12 years for coke residue in a pipe is a balanced rational sentence? Not in anyt sane society. Now when these prisons are built and not filled these folks head to the legislatures to get customers. Note the judges if philly, the alaskan legislators who were convicted for doing just that. Now the feds will be lobbied for just a few more thought crimes and voila, everyone gets a number
New Grrr
I accept that those evil bastards in those cases are doing exactly what what you fear, at least as the 1st stepping stone in the slippery slope.

Yes, I give a watered down lecture to my kids, basically giving your viewpoint.

And yes, the disparate sentences for crack VS powder coke seem hugely discriminatory. Do you have any direct experience with these drugs? While I am a proponent of no restriction for adults for anything, I gotta tell you, crack beats heroin (by FAR) as incredibly damaging, not just to an individual, but to blocks, neghborhoods, it's fucking incredible. It sweeps like wildfire.

I'd consider life imprisonment for an adult who gives a kid (choose a number, 18 it fine with me) crack. Really. If an adult gives it to someone else's kids, let the parent decide if they want the death penalty.

My TL grew up on a block of over 100 kids on it. NE philly. It was swarming with friendly activity. Of course, it was a bit isolated, as most enclaves are.

And then Grandma crack moved in. She has 2 daughters she was pimping out, and a nice little crack business going. Of course, no one knew that then.

Within a couple of years, the block was destroyed. Most of the kids were smoking crack. Lots of deaths. Yes, some jail as well, supporting the prison/industrial system.

I've done almost every drug (ya know, that people play with) known to man, at least in the 70s. I know a few isolated deaths in that time frame. I almost died. In each case, a lesson was learned, and it was unlikely that's other members of my druggie community would then follow the level of usage.

Crack doesn't work that way. Let be a reward for living until 18, but let it be controlled. If you still make the decision to use it, fine, but don't let it near the kids. Ok, off the drug rant.

The problem is that you either see a near term disaster (on the total political situation) that I don't, and are in the FUCK IT ALL, RISK EVERYTHING (and maybe you don't feel you are risking much at this point), and RESTART mode, or you are a serious idealistic long term thinker and don't care about the intense near term pain and death, since you feel the end result will simply be worth it.

Also, you are a competent survivalist. In the words of Rambo's colonel, you can eat things that will make a billy goat puke. So if a total shitstorm happens, you might actually end up on top. Which probably colors your perspective a bit.

Either way, I can't back your direction. My life is pretty damn good (not monetarily, just finally in a good place emotionally/family), which means my risk aversion goes up, and I'd rather ride out what I see, working from within, than nuking and rebuilding.
Expand Edited by crazy Jan. 11, 2010, 07:12:27 AM EST
New nope crack is good but compared to the almost
ejaculation that heroin gives when intraduced via needle mixed with mda commonly known as X is nothing. Not trying to give anyone any ideas, but when the big C sez I have 6 months I will be alternating that with speedballs.
Of course all of the above is just conjecture on my part. :-)
On your experience may vary discussion. A dear friend Frank Rising bought a gram of coke every weekend as pussy bait from the middle of world war 2 until the late 1980's. A master thief, assistant of hookers and owner of after hour joints survivor of lung cancer, discovered crack circa 1988. This man was a paragon of ignoring temptations did an 8ball a day until he croaked in 1991. Not a pretty drug.
It is an easy drug to quit. Much like booze if you dont have that first hit off the pipe you dont need a second.
smoking tobacco is more difficult in my uneducated opinion
New Agreed, but
Needles cross a line for most druggies. Until that point, you can live in denial and say I'm not THAT bad. That's why hilbilly heroin (oxys) was a big deal, since it allowed people to chew and get ALMOST the same high, and still think you are OK

So it really means FAR less people take the 1st hit.

Also, it takes far longer to die on crack, it is far more social (a lot easier to share a pipe than a needle!), which means it grows via network effect. Heroin is a 1 on 1 type of thing when being shared. You have to trust the person more, since you may nod off and they could rob/kill you. Far less chance of that happening on crack.

So, when talking about individual affect, heroin is more likely to kill you in the short term, but crack will kill far more people.
New Contaigion vs. mortality ... I'm sure CDC has the figures
--

Drew
New druggies have a line? ROFL!
back when I was a kid people had fit kits
New Sense of scale.
That's my point. It is a matter of degrees only. Can you honestly say you feel good about that?
New Read above post I just did
New You need smileys
Tongue-in-cheek usually doesn't get picked up when talking about mass murder on the internet.

Sorry, you've posted way too many historical rants (with some seriously scary stuff, no, I'm not going to go looking for them) for me to ever take you anything but seriously.
New This guy says it quite well
http://www.nytimes.c...on/26douthat.html
New Disagree. I think he misses him completely.
Take a look at his speech on race again. It seems to me that Obama is completely transparent on what he believes and his approach to governing.

http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=print

The world, and politics, isn't black and white.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Ehh
Wonderful speech.
No doubt.
I heard it live.
I was driving through Morrestown, NJ, which according to Fortune was the best town in the USA to live in during 2005, listening to NPR.
(just came across that snippet).

So anyway, what does that have to say about his core inner targets and what he is willing to compromise on?

Bottom line is we don't know his bottom line, we can't. Because if we did, he'd never get it.
New I don't know how he can be more clear.
Douthat said:

Obama baffles observers, I suspect, because he’s an ideologue and a pragmatist all at once. He’s a doctrinaire liberal who’s always willing to cut a deal and grab for half the loaf. He has the policy preferences of a progressive blogger, but the governing style of a seasoned Beltway wheeler-dealer.


He's not an ideologue. He's not a doctrinaire liberal. He doesn't have the policy preferences of a progressive blogger or the governing style of a seasoned Beltway wheeler-dealer.

Obama's written and given several speeches where he explicitly talks about what he believes and how he wants to get there. He's written 2 books that talk about his history and beliefs. He's about the most transparent president we've ever had (whether one likes what he has to say or not). But he doesn't fit in a pidegeon-hole, so the pundits don't know how to categorize him.

This is where we are right now. It’s a racial stalemate we’ve been stuck in for years. Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, black and white, I have never been so naïve as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidacy – particularly a candidacy as imperfect as my own.

But I have asserted a firm conviction – a conviction rooted in my faith in God and my faith in the American people – that working together we can move beyond some of our old racial wounds, and that in fact we have no choice if we are to continue on the path of a more perfect union.

For the African-American community, that path means embracing the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past. It means continuing to insist on a full measure of justice in every aspect of American life. But it also means binding our particular grievances – for better health care, and better schools, and better jobs - to the larger aspirations of all Americans -- the white woman struggling to break the glass ceiling, the white man who's been laid off, the immigrant trying to feed his family. And it means taking full responsibility for own lives – by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny.

Ironically, this quintessentially American – and yes, conservative – notion of self-help found frequent expression in Reverend Wright’s sermons. But what my former pastor too often failed to understand is that embarking on a program of self-help also requires a belief that society can change.


Ultimately, he an idealistic pragmatist. He wants to see reason backed by evidence - not dogma. He's not a capital D democrat, or a capital P progressive. He knows that change will be difficult, but by understanding who we are and how we got here, we can make the country and the world better for everyone. We don't have to be prisoners of our past. He refuses to be pidgeon-holed; that doesn't make him a sell-out or a Manchurian Candidate. He's in it for the long-term.

I think this is behind everything he does from his race speech, to his inaugural address, to his comments about ridding the world of nuclear weapons (which we are obligated by treaty to do, already), to his budget proposals, and even to his actions thus far on FISA and Guantanamo and the 2 wars. He's not a Chicago politician who will turn off the lights on people who don't vote with him.... He's not going to tilt at windmills for a single-payer system (even while he accepts the arguments that it's most efficient) since there's no amount of political capital that can get it enacted now.

Asking what his bottom line is sort-of misses the point.

I really don't understand why so many commentators can't see this... :-/

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Your concept of bottom line is different from mine
You get annoyed at a high level label which will then supposedly drive policy in a predicatable fashion. I don't care about the top level labels. I care that we move forward in a good direction.

My bottom line is based on every negotiation when going for a specific goal. You don't let the other guy know what is the most important to you, or what you are willing to give up to achieve it.

Because he is not ideologue, you will never know.

Sorry if some of the pointed to article doesn't match exactly what you feel, but it says many things well about how people simply will not be able to predict what he does, and I think that is a good thing.
New No worries. Don't let my whining get to you.
My annoyance is more a matter of being amazed at the (abysmal) quality of most opinion articles in the major newspapers, major blogs, and on TV than anything else. There are many reasons to be annoyed with Obama - saying that he's an "ideologue, a Chicago poll, who doesn't fight for his true beliefs" (or similar) isn't one of them.

IMHO. :-)

It seems to me that policy has moved exactly the way he said he wanted it to go. There have been stumbles along the way (Gitmo will take more than a year; Stupak's amendment may or may not make it; etc.). He's probably been too cautious on the economic rescue packages. But in general, he's letting the Congress work out the details and do its job while he sets the bar. We didn't elect a king.

[edit:] Krugman covers a related issue in his blog today: http://krugman.blogs...the-empty-center/

Cheers,
Scott.
Expand Edited by Another Scott Dec. 28, 2009, 11:01:35 AM EST
New on the other hand, having no policy stances
means you cant get pinned down or blamed.
New Or submarined
New Agree with it, except it's too long.
The entire article could have been one sentence: "There's no there, there."
     Is he delusional or is he just a pathological liar? - (mmoffitt) - (40)
         .... - (beepster) - (5)
             Let me know when the full transcript is available. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                 If you'll let me know when your arms get tired. ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                     Heh. Transcript here. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                         Except.. O. and proofreaders really ought to know the word - (Ashton) - (1)
                             Of course. But it's probably a lost cause. - (Another Scott)
         Definitely delusional. - (Mycroft_Holmes_Iv)
         Glenn Greenwald's take - (Ashton) - (3)
             "And a few dozen other insoluble problems" - (dmcarls) - (2)
                 wait till the 75 year draught hits then watch the fun -NT - (boxley)
                 In the "thou sayest" bin -- - (Ashton)
         Nah, a political liar - (crazy) - (28)
             Thank you - (beepster)
             Heh. - (mmoffitt) - (17)
                 Silly comparison - (crazy) - (16)
                     If not the gulag, maybe Gitmo? -NT - (mmoffitt) - (15)
                         Hmm - (crazy) - (14)
                             You tell me. Anyone die at Gitmo? - (mmoffitt) - (13)
                                 When did you sneak back in? - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                     When he got out of gitmo - (crazy)
                                     Thought I'd see how many were still Big O believers. ;0) - (mmoffitt)
                                 Sure, why not - (crazy) - (8)
                                     not just gitmo - (boxley) - (5)
                                         Grrr - (crazy) - (4)
                                             nope crack is good but compared to the almost - (boxley) - (3)
                                                 Agreed, but - (crazy) - (2)
                                                     Contaigion vs. mortality ... I'm sure CDC has the figures -NT - (drook)
                                                     druggies have a line? ROFL! - (boxley)
                                     Sense of scale. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                         Read above post I just did -NT - (crazy)
                                 You need smileys - (crazy)
             This guy says it quite well - (crazy) - (8)
                 Disagree. I think he misses him completely. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                     Ehh - (crazy) - (5)
                         I don't know how he can be more clear. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                             Your concept of bottom line is different from mine - (crazy) - (3)
                                 No worries. Don't let my whining get to you. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                     on the other hand, having no policy stances - (boxley) - (1)
                                         Or submarined -NT - (crazy)
                 Agree with it, except it's too long. - (mmoffitt)

The LRPD is never wrong.
131 ms