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New Absolutely, completely and uttlerly wrong.
You have assumed that the advice will be bad public policy (a position I find myself in almost complete agreement with) but good for company x. That's what the fear is here, isn't it? That public policy decisions are made with what's best for corporate Murica foremost in mind, with almost total disregard for what is truly in the public's interest.

You have implied that company x will tell the public officials what is good for company x and not the public. If that is correct then company x will, rightly, suffer massive PR attacks.


Part of my job is to write policy. In writing policies, I've found it very effective to have the worst offenders offer their advice on how the policy should be written. I ask very specific questions about their violations and how they would recommend the policy be changed to stop further violations or "rulebending".

Do you think that >anyone< would do that if the CEO were sitting in at every meeting. Do you think >I< would want this guys ideas on how to violate policy spread around so that everyone else knows how to do it?

Bias? No. Good management technique. Yes.

So...me wanting the branch responsible for public protection afforded the ability to get frank and candid advice from >everyone< (even the >bad< people) makes me pro-bizness.

Yeah...sure.

Think it through...

You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New So, part of your job is accommodation.
>> In writing policies, I've found it very effective to have the worst offenders
>> offer their advice on how the policy should be written. I ask very
>> specific questions about their violations and how they would recommend the
>> policy be changed to stop further violations or "rulebending".

If they're in violation, then you want to know how to change the rules so they won't be in violation. Not stop the behavior that causes the violation, but just change the rules so the same behavior is no longer illegal.

Thank you for making my point for me better than I ever could have. What you describe is precisely the kind of backroom deal making with corporate Murica that is completely, wholly indefensible.
New Bzzzt...wrong again.
Its not about rewriting policy to make their actions legal...its about rewriting policy to specifically forbid that activity...with specific assistance from those who know what was wrong with the old policy.


We will not agree on this point. So its safe to say we can just stop here.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New And in your world, criminals write the laws?
Thank you for illustrating EXACTLY why your practice is bad policy.

Why would ANYONE who is LEGALLY poisoning the environment have any interest in restricting their practices?

Why would ANYONE who is ILLEGALLY poisoning the environment have any interest in making their actions MORE illegal?

Why can't you close the loopholes YOURSELF?!?
New Why do I bother?
Public policy is about balance.

Your methodology has no balance because it eliminates the officials ability to get candid advice.

If you don't see it that way. Fine. We'll just leave it at that.

You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Crime is not "advice".
Your methodology has no balance because it eliminates the officials ability to get candid advice.
You're claiming that the people who willingly poison the environment have useful input for future policy?

Whatever.

If you don't see it that way. Fine. We'll just leave it at that.
No. I'm interested in your explanation of WHY someone who is WILLINGLY poisoning the environment would give you advice on how to stop him or how to increase his cost-of-doing-business.
     White House: Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. - (Silverlock) - (88)
         The part I don't understand..... - (Brandioch) - (86)
             My lack of understanding is different - (Silverlock) - (85)
                 Here's the theory - (drewk) - (1)
                     Good insight -NT - (SpiceWare)
                 Dates, names, topics of discussion - (bepatient) - (82)
                     We do NOT have a right to know. - (mmoffitt) - (80)
                         Well golly... - (bepatient) - (78)
                             Exactly how stupid are these executives? - (mmoffitt) - (76)
                                 The policy is a part of the public record. - (bepatient) - (75)
                                     Sorry, thought that was rhetorical. - (mmoffitt) - (72)
                                         Well then... - (bepatient) - (71)
                                             Huh? How does that follow? - (mmoffitt) - (70)
                                                 Are you actually... - (bepatient) - (69)
                                                     You mean.... - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                         No. I don't. -NT - (bepatient)
                                                     I knew the bias would come out if I waited long enough. - (mmoffitt) - (66)
                                                         That's not the problem - (drewk) - (12)
                                                             I don't see the problem. - (Brandioch) - (11)
                                                                 During the years when the dems had the house - (boxley) - (10)
                                                                     If you accept what they hand you, you deserve what you get. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (8)
                                                                         each according to my needs of their abilities? -NT - (boxley) - (7)
                                                                             No. each according to THEIR needs ;-) -NT - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                                                                 who decides? commisar=ceo same diff :) -NT - (boxley) - (5)
                                                                                     How about letting me decide? :-) -NT - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                                                                                         equals each according to my needs of their abilities :) -NT - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                                             No, I am more equal than you are :) -NT - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                                                 thats why (communism-people=works)(communism+people=doesnt) -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                     How do you know? It's never been tried. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                     That's why we should do it in public. - (Brandioch)
                                                         Absolutely, completely and uttlerly wrong. - (bepatient) - (5)
                                                             So, part of your job is accommodation. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                 Bzzzt...wrong again. - (bepatient)
                                                             And in your world, criminals write the laws? - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                                 Why do I bother? - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                     Crime is not "advice". - (Brandioch)
                                                         Keeping my example...and to illustrate other answer. - (bepatient) - (46)
                                                             Counter example. - (Brandioch)
                                                             You want to "discuss" this? - (mmoffitt) - (44)
                                                                 applause - (Brandioch) - (7)
                                                                     Real example - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                                                         Good example. - (Brandioch) - (5)
                                                                             Well said. Concur completely. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                             Do you have reading problems? - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                                                                 No worse than your's. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                                                     One of us has more free time... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                                         Full circle. - (Brandioch)
                                                                 How are you going to know about the problem? - (bepatient) - (35)
                                                                     Again, an interesting world you live in. - (Brandioch) - (33)
                                                                         Not much of a reader are you. - (bepatient) - (32)
                                                                             You say "balance". - (Brandioch) - (31)
                                                                                 I'll try once. - (Ric Locke) - (30)
                                                                                     And what color is the sky in your world? - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                     Higher speeds cause more deaths. - (Brandioch) - (28)
                                                                                         And you have never seen... - (a6l6e6x) - (27)
                                                                                             The order of those events is the key. - (Brandioch) - (26)
                                                                                                 Who do you think monitors the laws? - (bepatient) - (25)
                                                                                                     The eco-freaks do. - (Brandioch) - (24)
                                                                                                         Why do I think they do? - (bepatient) - (23)
                                                                                                             You use that phrase, but I do not think you understand it. - (Brandioch) - (22)
                                                                                                                 You don't know what you're talking about. - (bepatient) - (21)
                                                                                                                     Ah, the old "I have secret wisdom and you don't" ploy. - (Brandioch) - (20)
                                                                                                                         Courtesy request - (ben_tilly)
                                                                                                                         Ah...I see. - (bepatient) - (18)
                                                                                                                             Ah, since I slammed your "secret wisdom of the ancients"... - (Brandioch) - (17)
                                                                                                                                 Just applying your "logic" - (bepatient) - (16)
                                                                                                                                     Another successful application of filtering. - (Brandioch) - (15)
                                                                                                                                         I can see... - (bepatient) - (14)
                                                                                                                                             I can see you're still filtering. - (Brandioch) - (13)
                                                                                                                                                 No. - (bepatient) - (12)
                                                                                                                                                     Strange...... - (Brandioch) - (6)
                                                                                                                                                         Nope. You can't read. -NT - (bepatient) - (5)
                                                                                                                                                             When pressed for actual facts..... - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                                                                                                                                                 Sure...no sweat. - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                                     Why so fact aversive? - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                         this space left blank -NT - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                             Again, why are you afraid of the facts? - (Brandioch)
                                                                                                                                                     Clarification please. - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                                                                                                                                                         Technically not criminals. - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                             That is indeed a fascinating notion. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                                                                                             Perhaps competing companies are better at working a loop... - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                 Possibly. - (Brandioch)
                                                                     You changed your hypothesis. - (mmoffitt)
                                     Hmmmm..... - (Brandioch)
                                     Well..it does happen with ever administration... - (Simon_Jester)
                             Rant for rant... - (jb4)
                         Just ask JacksonLee - (boxley)
                     I say they should release the names... - (marlowe)
         We all know that the President is but a mear puppet - (nking)

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