Post #31,015
3/6/02 10:52:05 AM
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Let us think about what you said...
The Indians lived in the US for centuries before the European settlers got here, teh European settlers then exterminated them and herded them onto reservations. Let's give back the US to the Indians. While we are at it lets look at the American Southwest which the US stole in a war of agression with Mexico, give it back to Mexico.
The fact is that the map of the Middle East and Africa was completely redrawn by the European colonial powers in the early 1900's, most of the Arab countries did not exist before the either.
The fact is that the Arabs control 98% of all the land in the Middle East, the issue is not land but as Thomas Friedman writes: "As a U.S. diplomat in the Middle East said to me, Israel \ufffd not Iraq, not India \ufffd is "a constant reminder to Muslims of their own powerlessness." How could a tiny Jewish state amass so much military and economic power if the Islamic way of life \ufffd not Christianity or Judaism \ufffd is God's most ideal religious path?"
Between 1948 and 1953 Israel absorbed 800,000+ refugees who were forced to leave Arab countries where they had lived for centuries. Those refugees children are now productive citizens. If the Arab world had shown a similar concern they would have absorbed the 800,000 or so Palestinian refugees into their societies. Why is it that the Palestinians are in refugee camps 50 years, where are their Arab brothers?
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Post #31,016
3/6/02 10:57:21 AM
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Disturbing.
>>How could a tiny Jewish state amass so much military and economic power if
>>the Islamic way of life \ufffd not Christianity or Judaism \ufffd is God's most ideal
>>religious path?
"God's most ideal religious path" leads to military might? The argument that "By following God's will, we will have more missles, tanks, F-16's, guns, etc." is completely lost on me.
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Post #31,148
3/7/02 4:02:52 AM
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Hardly surprising - why disturbing?
Following a Holocaust in which - the mere fact of being 'Semitic' or especially 'Jewish' produced an actual (not attitudinal) death warrant:
WHO, having survived that.. and finally having a place to live: would NOT create the means for self-defense against a KNOWN and large group of enemies - pledged to your extermination, and wanting not most, but ALL of your land? (That this group of opponents already inhabited (bluke says 98% - close enough) of the surrounding land.. would only ensure that your defense was both competent and - of large capability)
Clearer now?
Ashton
Supposing that instead, they had adopted the (merely preached; never actually practised) Christian ideal of, turn the other cheek - would you estimate Israel's chances of survival as,
A) equal to
B) greater than
C) less than, that of
A homosexual getting out of a 700 Club meeting alive? (After the Tee Vee lights were turned off and they donned their cloaks, natch)
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Post #31,221
3/7/02 1:32:58 PM
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I said disturbing, not incomprehensible.
On a micro-cosmic scale, similar reasoning might justify the father of a child raped and murdered committing the murder of the perpetrator. That, like your post, is an understandable reaction.
Disturbing that some would call this reaction "God's Will". If one supposes the existence of a deity, I doubt that deity would be on the side of any murder, however humanly justifiable. And "military power" is merely a euphemism for "mass murder capability".
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Post #31,250
3/7/02 5:12:04 PM
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That may be precisely, "the rub" !
Disturbing that some would call this reaction "God's Will". If one supposes the existence of a deity, I doubt that deity would be on the side of any murder, however humanly justifiable. And "military power" is merely a euphemism for "mass murder capability". How could I not agree with such a sentiment? Fact is (I think this is a proper use for that word) - quite many.. 'believe' / act as if they believe that, ANY ACT committed in the name of [My version of] 'God' is not merely permitted but, mandatory: whether it's offing your own kid (to show that you 'love'/Fear Your-version of God' !!) or.. just review all the massacres in history, In Her Name. Logic, never mind any pretense at sweet Reason, is not enough! where perhaps genetic [??] predispositions to idiocy - produce this recurrent, predictable, worse-than 'bestial' behavior. I tend to call this defect, 'adolescence of our species' - because there is some hope within that assessment. But what if... 'we' CANNOT overcome this God-drunkenness [Gott-trunken?] *EVER* ??? {sigh} Ashton
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Post #31,347
3/8/02 9:47:20 AM
3/8/02 9:56:53 AM
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Marx thought we couldn't overcome the drunkeness.
And I do not believe that any of the anthropomorphic religions yield themselves to an abandonment of "the rapture". Even among non-violent, non-supremisist "believers" religion remains a self-serving endeavor (we do good because we want a reward after death, or we fear retribution if we don't do good).
No one can dispute that more harm has been done "in the name of God" (whoever she is) than for any other motivation. But, if she's out there (and to concede my own bias, I believe she is) any violence done in her name is the worst form of corruption.
Will religion ever cease to be "an opiate of the People"? I believe it can be, but only if all the medieval, superstitious, anthropomorphic religions of fear have been irradicated from all cultures worldwide. I have doubts as to whether the planet will last long enough for that to happen.
Edited by mmoffitt
March 8, 2002, 09:56:53 AM EST
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Post #32,676
3/18/02 8:45:10 PM
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Then we are agreed on the odds. :(
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Post #32,547
3/18/02 5:12:43 AM
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Why??
They (Muslims according to Freidman) believe that since they are following God's will God will reward them with success. That is not hard to believe, after all Christians believed that for centuries. The fact that they haven't had much success and Israel has confounds them.
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Post #32,636
3/18/02 4:49:51 PM
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Re: confounds them? It pisses them off! :)
Alex
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
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