I have a duty to pay taxes

Post #309,778 by boxley 6/17/09 8:07:21 AM Reply	I have a duty to pay taxes Finding a business method to pay the smallest amount of taxes owed is not a conspiracy regardless of what the IRS tries to say. They can win in court over the amount of taxes I owe based on a disagreement of the business model but thats it. Unless the USG recalls all silver and gold coinage to take it out of circulation and makes it a crime to own such pieces, they are still worth face value at minimum. thanx, bill
Post #309,780 by Another Scott 6/17/09 8:21:56 AM Reply	Where did Kahre get the coins? I really doubt that Kahre paid face value for the gold and silver coins he paid people with. I also doubt that he has millions in gold or silver in a vault in his back yard. They're worth more than face value, and cost more than face value. It's clearly just a conspiracy to avoid taxes. That's fraud. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #309,782 by boxley 6/17/09 9:06:43 AM Reply	do you have any pennies in a jar? If you spend them then you are commiting fraud as they are clearly worth more According to London Metals Exchange, via metalprices.com, cost per penny in bulk metal would be 0.34 cents http://blog.lukascoa...r-penny-cost.html
Post #309,784 by drook 6/17/09 9:09:06 AM Reply	0.34 cents is less than 1 cent, isn't it? -- Drew
Post #309,790 by Andrew Grygus 6/17/09 9:39:42 AM Reply	Looks a little higher Pennys are 97.5% zinc, which currently runs under US $0.73/# (still depressed but up some). There's 181 pennies per pound so that's $0.0040 per penny plus a negligible amount for copper. That $0.34 was probably from a few months ago when zinc was down around $0.50/#. The mint claims it costs more than a penny to manufacture a penny, but that's not all metal cost.
Post #309,804 by jay 6/17/09 5:07:24 PM Reply	There was more then $.01 in a penny when it was copper The reason the mint switched from copper to zinc is that the price of the copper ended up being substantially more then 1 cent. When the price of copper was high it actually reached the point it was profitable to get copper coins from the mint, melt them down and sell them as bulk copper if you did it on a large scale. I found a calculator (http://www.coinflation.com/) that indicates that with today's price, the metal value of a pre-1982 coin would be $.014. And that is at rather depressed prices, during the pre-bubble spike it could have been double that. Jay
Post #309,788 by mhuber 6/17/09 9:32:50 AM Reply	Depends on value received, deal made You have to pay taxes on barter deals, and those tend to involve items with no face value at all. It wasn't a cash deal, it was a barter deal. The fact that the barter goods also have a face value doesn't change it unless the person receiving those goods was willing to accept other currency. It comes down to the meeting of minds. What is the deal worth to those involved? If I have a penny jar and the pennies are worth more than face value (either as scrap metal or because they are worth something to coin collectors) and I trade that jar of pennies to somebody based on that higher value, that's barter. The reason it usually doesn't become a tax issue is that the metal or numismatic value of the penny jar is usually not large enough to worry about.
Post #309,795 by drook 6/17/09 11:28:55 AM Reply	On taxing barter Barter is one of the easiest ways to make a libertarian argument. Let's say I help my neighbor paint his house. The next week he helps me build a deck on my house. Technically we just engaged in barter, and we both owe taxes on the work done. Why isn't this enforced? Because people clearly see that it's wrong. Not legal/illegal, but wrong. Now what if it's a straight quid pro quo: You do this and I'll do that. Is that taxable? How about if it's quid pro quo with someone who's not my neighbor? Extend the argument, and you start asking, "Hey, yeah, why do I pay income taxes? I'm trading my labor for their money. Why don't I get to claim my labor as an expense to offset my taxes?" And that's why all these tax protesters keep getting hauled into court by the IRS. -- Drew
Post #309,805 by jay 6/17/09 5:09:39 PM Reply	I don't see anything wrong Let's say I help my neighbor paint his house. The next week he helps me build a deck on my house. Technically we just engaged in barter, and we both owe taxes on the work done. Why isn't this enforced? Because people clearly see that it's wrong. Not legal/illegal, but wrong. I don't see anything wrong with taxing that transaction. I see a lot impractical, but nothing wrong. Taxes are applied to the exchange of value, money is simply a handy tool for keeping score. Jay
Post #309,809 by boxley 6/17/09 5:46:54 PM Reply	keeping score is a bitch I charge $175 for consulting, helping drew build a deck takes 10 hrs of my time. I should be able to take a tax loss of $1750 because I didnt get paid or do I offset drew's loss of $1750 for his 10 hrs painting my deck? either way no gain or profit has been realized
Post #309,811 by drook 6/17/09 6:07:56 PM Reply	"no gain or profit has been realized" If I charge $175/hour, and I spend 8 hours at work, that's 8 hours I wasn't doing something else. In other words, my time has value, and I just exchanged it. No profit has been realized. So say the tax protesters. -- Drew
Post #309,815 by boxley 6/17/09 7:43:34 PM Reply	sounds good to me however, I am happy to scam banks, insurance co's unions and other organized thieves but the IRS is one I leave strictly alone. One audit even tho I was not given a penalty is enough
Post #309,797 by Another Scott 6/17/09 11:54:59 AM Reply	What did the pennies cost me? 1 cent. HTH.

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