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New Corporate vs organic farming
There’s been quite a bit of contention erupt over a bill being proposed in the House, the Food Safety Modernization Act of 2009, HR 875: This bill is purportedly to establish a ‘Food Safety Administration’ within the DHHS to regulate food safety, labelling, and regulating the processing, storing, and transport of food from ‘food establishments’, promote food safety research by academic and State institutions. On the face of it, after the recent poison peanut fiasco, that doesn’t sound like such a bad idea, does it…?


http://crooksandliars.com/node/26835


I really don't know enough about science side of this to come down on one side or the other. However, I do remember the bang-up job done by corporatists with the financial sector and that leads me to distrust the desire of corporations to allow anything but short term profit to influence their decisions.

"No one ever fertilized an old growth forest."
New It's not just the crops
http://nonais.org/in...but-what-is-nais/

The idea is that every single livestock animal in the United States will be identified and tagged. All livestock animal movements will be tracked, logged and reported to the government. The benefit is to the big factory farms who probably do need this type of regulation. They get to do single ID’s for large groups of animals. Small farmers, pet owners and homesteaders will have to tag and track every single animal.


The large meat producers have demonstrably been unable to prevent food-borne pathogens. This tracking system is designed so that when people start getting sick, they can trace back through the system until they find the current problem and fix it. It's institutionalized whack-a-mole.

To actually prevent problems they'd have to acknowledge that CAFOs and industrialized slaughterhouses are inherently unsafe. The "solution" to that problem is one that makes small-scale farming all but illegal. And small-scale farming doesn't have the problems that NAIS is designed to "solve".
--

Drew
New Math, again.
One sick cow in an industrial place poisons millions of pounds of beef. One sick cow in a traditional place poisons hundreds of pounds of beef.

The math works like this: what are the odds of every single animal in the batch being healthy? Because nothing else matters, one sick animal contaminates the batch.

Your chance of getting a burger that won't make you sick is
(1-P)^N
where P is the chance of any one animal being sick, and N is the number of animals. Assume P is constant between the traditional and the industrial, and look at what happens with large N. Look at an industrial farm and a traditional farm and tell me P isn't way less on the traditional farm, which makes the numbers far worse.

The math makes me suspect there are a lot of cases slipping by, contaminations that aren't caught, disease outbreaks that involve lots of people feeling pretty grungy but not going to the doctor or dying, or not mentioning the burger they had a week ago. Because even with a very small value of P, as N gets big, your chance of a non-toxic lunch goes down. Way down. Plug in some numbers and play.

There are economics of scale, but when I buy a quarter of a cow from a traditional place, I pay as much per pound for the whole thing as I do for low-grade industrial burger. And there is nothing in that quarter cow that would cost less than the low-grade burger.

New Exactly
Look at an industrial farm and a traditional farm and tell me P isn't way less on the traditional farm.
That's the simple fact that NAIS desperately needs to avoid acknowledging.

Something about your analysis made me realize this situation is exactly analogous to anti-virus software. Imagine a law mandating installation of Norton anti-virus software:
"But I use Linux. Norton isn't available for Linux."

Then you need to switch to Windows.

"But Windows is the problem. People using Linux don't need Norton."

Have you installed Norton yet?

"I ... but ..."

Why do you hate America so much?
--

Drew
New P is complicated, N is dead simple
NAIS is trying to reduce P.

And there are tons of factors that go into P, all kinds of questions that can be raised. Is it safer to dump antibiotics by the pound into a large herd or to pay attention to each animal? I have my opinion, big (ph|f)arma has theirs. We can argue.

But for N, there is no room to argue. N is how many animals go through the shredder before you shut it down and clean it out. And huge values of N are dangerous unless P is tiny.

There is a solution that works: traditional farms and food handling. Small value of N, people with a real stake paying attention and able to shut down and correct problems right away when needed to keep P low. No high tech needed. No tracking every animal from spawning to sewage. And for the tracking system to really work, you would have to track sewage, because that's where the problems tend to show up first.


Hey, maybe we can tie this in to the hand washing tracker.

New Solutions to the peanut thing
1) Fix the goddamn roof
2) Clean up the goddamn place

The problems were obvious and simple and easy to solve and had been reported. The guy who ran the place just didn't want to spend the money. Not only is he personally responsible for the death of everybody who died and the distress of everybody who got sick, he also stole from everybody who was lucky enough not to get sick.

Teotihuacan, people. Feed a few expensive hearts to the Old Ones, and Coatlique will have the energy to bring enlightenment and fresh ideas (like, "hey, let's hire some guys - or pull some guys off the line - to fix the roof and get the rat and bird crap out of the plant before somebody gets sick") to those who still have temporary custody of her next dinner.

     Corporate vs organic farming - (Silverlock) - (5)
         It's not just the crops - (drook) - (3)
             Math, again. - (mhuber) - (2)
                 Exactly - (drook) - (1)
                     P is complicated, N is dead simple - (mhuber)
         Solutions to the peanut thing - (mhuber)

Follow the gourd!
78 ms