Post #3,048
7/30/01 12:38:09 PM
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Forces of the Universe
What are the known forces of the Universe?
1. Gravity
2. Electro-Magnetic
3. Nuclear Strong
4. Nuclear Weak
5. Quantum Forces (Gluons and such)
Are we missing any? Such as:
6. The Mind
I am not talking about the "brain" but the mind. Sort of like software instead of hardware. Does the universe have a mind, sort of?
In human terms we apparently can use the mind to do many things. Many of the miracles or magic we have created may be the result of some other force not yet determined by scientists.
Imagine if you will, psychosomatic effects. If someone believes that they are going to get sick, they get sick and have the physical symptoms of a sick person. There is no virus present, but they have flu-like symptoms. The same is true of a placebo, they are told the pill will cure them, but it was only sugar/starch, yet they got cured anyway. I suspect there may be some sort of mind over matter involved here.
If a shaman believes that he can walk on hot coals without getting burned, and does so, could the mind also be playing a role here?
Is this some kind of force in the universe, a force of the mind, that can somehow change our physical laws to a certain degree? Is the mind really some source of energy or pattern of particles that can influence matter and energy? Do stars, planets, galaxies, and even the Universe itself have some sort of "Mind"? Are we just part of a much larger mind, but independent of each other?
What is the mind made of? Science still as far as I know, has not explained the mind and how it works yet. Even the most simplest things, like one celled creatures seem to have a bit of a mind. Even plants can react to sunlight and turn towards the light.
Has anyone ever thought about it until now?
"I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!"Moe Howard
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Post #3,079
7/30/01 3:11:05 PM
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...Untie!
Has anyone ever thought about it until now? Theosophists, magicians etc., etc... Heck - how much 'mind' is dependent on 'brain' was a major topic in my Epistemology classes in college. psychosomatic effects. If someone believes that they are going to get sick, they get sick and have the physical symptoms of a sick person This is the 'brain' part of things - the mind is tied to the body, and can exert influence over it. That influence looks 'magic' because it's on a level our awareness does not normally function. Is this some kind of force in the universe, a force of the mind, that can somehow change... I think so, yes. This isn't the Religion forum, though. Even the most simplest things, like one celled creatures seem to have a bit of a mind. Even plants can react to sunlight and turn towards the light. Yup - it's the 'cybernetic loop'; action-perception-reaction. FWIW, and returning reluctantly to the religious aspect, it's how we are 'made in His image', I believe. Also, note that if this loop itself can be percieved and acted upon (self awareness), mathematical chaos ensues. So - is the "I" a strange attractor (well, considering my own life, I have to say - yes, but that's another story *grin*)? Does this mean that the 'mind' can be considered to be separate from the 'brain'? It is certainly different...
Imric's Tips for Living- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
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Post #3,119
7/30/01 7:22:02 PM
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Heh.. LRPDism below: "the natural enemy of the tight-rope
walker is the bee."
Now as to, Also, note that if this loop itself can be percieved and acted upon (self awareness), mathematical chaos ensues.
Care to expand? (Unclear here, what are the depths of your depravity ;-)
Ashton
circular logic makes the world go 'round
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Post #3,136
7/30/01 9:20:23 PM
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Ok...
Once the cybernetic loop can percieve itself, 'itself' becomes input for the cybernetic loop.
If you think of this as an iterative mathematic function, you can see how [link|http://hypertextbook.com/chaos/|chaos] enters the picture.
Imric's Tips for Living- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
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Post #3,170
7/31/01 3:07:35 AM
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Ah.. 'the loop' It er 'self'..
Thought perhaps you were exrapolating math to homo-saps doing a complete inventory and finding [their own loopiness?]
(Actually, those who claim to have finished the inventory - always seem quite peaceful and unchaotic)
A.
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Post #3,182
7/31/01 9:05:34 AM
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*grin*
Actually, those who claim to have finished the inventory - always seem quite peaceful and unchaotic Nah - they just found thier boundary conditions...
Imric's Tips for Living- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
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Post #3,304
7/31/01 5:24:56 PM
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Self awareness ain't all that much
The inclusion of a self symbol in a system isn't that big of a deal. It may be neccessary, but certainly isn't sufficient, for enlightenment.
The level of sophistication needed for self awareness, compared to that needed to attain that peaceful unchaotic state, is like comparing the functioning of a coma patient with that of a serious athlete.
White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
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Post #3,310
7/31/01 7:00:26 PM
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Just a matter of degree
(Actually, those who claim to have finished the inventory - always seem quite peaceful and unchaotic) The level of sophistication needed for self awareness, compared to that needed to attain that peaceful unchaotic state, is like comparing the functioning of a coma patient with that of a serious athlete.
*grin* So the coma patient has less to inventory...
Imric's Tips for Living- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
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Post #3,356
8/1/01 3:21:09 AM
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Mayhap - but then he can't count either, so..
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Post #3,158
7/30/01 11:24:29 PM
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You forgot 3
6. Larry
7. Mo
8. Curly
________________
oop.ismad.com
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Post #3,303
7/31/01 5:12:06 PM
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Not mind. Ignorance, maybe.
Dang, I need to skim the Sci. Am. archives. Anyway, a while back they had an interesting article on nano computers and the relationship between information and entropy.
It turns out that you can, in theory, build a memory cell that does not require an increase in entropy to store a bit. In other words, information does not, in the storage, have an entropy cost. But to erase the memory has a very specific entropy cost.
In other words, information is free. Ignorance costs energy.
But mind is an emergent phenomenon that derives from other forces. It has interesting consequences, particularly if you happen to be a cat whose opposable thumbs are are attatched to a physiscist, but other than observer effects it doesn't do anything physical that can't be explained in terms of normal forces. In a psychosomatic illness, the illness results from the usual biochemistry thrown out of balance. Placebo effects work (to the extent that they do) because the system recognizes that the pain has been addressed and is no longer needed. Other psychosomatic effects occur when the body attempts to do what would be the right thing in other circumstances, typicaly by running subsystems beyond thir capabilities.
Strange and wonderful and very complicated, but not of the same category as the other forces. Even in the most extreme view of observer effects, mind is no more a force than pizza is an element.
White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
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Post #3,357
8/1/01 3:33:09 AM
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"As above so below"
Has a catchy lilt to it, and we are stuck with concepts - they are all that mind can process. Fold-in and stir, "the lower cannot see the higher". It follows that, "mind cannot know itself".
Yet some can - discern (their own, natch) "mind at work - what most often it does". And even 'cause' mind to become most uncharacteristically er silent! (usually only after long practice).
So what might be ~ "that which can observe mind" ? And what might that say about "different ways of 'knowing'" ?
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