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New They're basically just bets, right?
Any CDS that is based on party A agreeing to pay party B based on the outcome of activity between party C and party D is basically a bet. So how about just declaring, "All bets are off." If you don't have a direct financial stake in the outcome that triggers payout on the CDS, you've had your fun but now it's over.

The huge numbers we keep reading are the amount of the guarantees, not the amount that has actually been paid for them. Just declare that what you've paid, you've lost. It's over. Illegal gambling den is closed.
--

Drew
New Would be great if it were that easy.
My understanding is that these derivatives were basically insurance under a different name. Normal insurance companies have reserve requirements, capital requirements, etc., that prevent them from selling policies above some multiple of their capital (10x?). That way, they'd have capital to pay claims if bad things happen. The financial industry was able to argue to the lawmakers and regulators that these derivatives shouldn't be subject to those rules, so the Masters of the Universe went crazy selling and buying these things with the expectation that they'd never have to pay off a significant fraction of them.

According to Wikipedia, it was a $45T market by the end of 2007, while the world GDP was $55T (according to the CIA Factbook). That's just nuts. Even if most of the money is offset by a bet on the other side, there's still a lot of money tied up in these things.

I don't think that declaring them void would work, but I don't know enough about the details.

Cheers,
Scott.
New What's the lower number?
When you say it's a $45T market, that's the amount at issue if everything pays out. What is the "premium" that was actually paid for them?

For my car insurance, let's say I pay $100/month and the max payout could be $500k. (Don't know how close that actually is to reality.) If I've been paying the premium for 8 years, that's $9600. If there are 100 million people just like me, is that a $50T market ($500k x 100M), or is that a $960B market ($9600 x 100M)?

Sure, that's still big, but not nearly so much as the larger number. And if my memory of the numbers in CDSs is at all reliable, there are much higher multiples at play than the ~50-to-1 in my car insurance example.

I guess what I'm saying is, instead of talking about the nominal "value" of this market, what is the "cost" of current investment?

Ooh, perfect analogy! A CDS is a Beanie Baby. People bought lots of Beanie Babies thinking they were worth something. All of a sudden, everyone decided at the same time that no, they really weren't. The irrationally exuberant collector who had 10k plush dolls, allegedly worth $100 each, didn't just lose a million dollars. He lost the $20k he paid to build the collection.
--

Drew
New I understand your argument, I think.
I agree: Unless the whole world's financial system implodes, there aren't going to be $45T in real losses. And if it does implode, then paper money isn't going to be worth anything anyway, so it still doesn't matter. Everyone on Earth isn't going to have to come up with $7500 each to pay off this paper.

With the offsetting bets on the other side, the $45T may actually be $450B in "real money" (1%). I agree.

The issues, as I understand it, are that:

1) These bets aren't disclosed, so nobody knows if BoA has $5B or $200B in these offset bets that are never going to be worth anything. BoA doesn't know because the folks they're dealing with have comparable investments with others, and they don't know, and so on. Since the world financial system is so interconnected, if, say BoA or Citi or Mitsui or Gazprom Bank or ... is actually insolvent (since their CDSs are worthless), then they'll drag down the rest of the system via other banks that are holding their paper.

2) The idea of a "Bad Bank" to swallow up these things has some appeal, but the issue is determining a "fair" price that results in the policy objectives without pricing them so high as to excessively reward the folks who got us in this while at the same time putting an even larger burden on society as a whole (lower growth, inflation, taxes, etc.). And what, if anything, the US should get in return for taking these things off their hands? And what happens to private investment in these banks if the Fed starts buying up toxic paper? Do they run for the hills, making the situation worse?

Paper losses (like your Beanie Baby example) are certainly in play here, but since banks have reserve requirements, there is a real impact when their capital is suddenly dramatically reduced. These CDS losses must have some significant impact on their capital (as I understand it, CDSs are how much of Wall Street was making their profits these last several years). Waiving reserve requirements, or dramatically reducing them, is probably not something we would want to do without strong safeguards and a lot of thought.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Getting from here to there is the hard part
You're right that the problem is no one knows the whole story. That's why the only way to fix it IMO is to wave a wand and say "game over, everyone go home".

Obviously this causes problems for anyone who put the theoretical future value of this crap in the "assets" column to satisfy their capital reserve. But it never was money. When people found out Maddoff was running a Ponzi scheme, their investment went to $0. If you were counting your investment in his fund as "capital" then you lost it. Find the money somewhere else.

That is what I'm suggesting. Declare that reality counts now. Those investments were never legitimate productive activity. The alleged future value was a fantasy. The current value is now $0.

"CDSs are how much of Wall Street was making their profits these last several years."

Right. Which means they weren't actually making profits. They were withdrawing money from a Ponzi scheme. Same as Maddoff. And when it's over, it's over. The money is gone.
--

Drew
New Re: Getting from here to there is the hard part
Obviously this causes problems for anyone who put the theoretical future value of this crap in the "assets" column to satisfy their capital reserve. But it never was money. When people found out Maddoff was running a Ponzi scheme, their investment went to $0. If you were counting your investment in his fund as "capital" then you lost it. Find the money somewhere else.

It's the find the money someplace else that the banks tried and failed at. Lehman went under because it couldn't. And when the consequences of that hit, the government decided they couldn't let any other big finance groups go under.

What we have right now with TARP works like this. Bank's go to the government and whine that their investments in Beanie Babies are not worth what they thought. The government asks "How much did you loose?" And the bank replies "You don't want to know." The government gives them a chunk of cash. The bank executives spent it buy thing themselves nice things. Repeat as needed.

Jay
New I think the number is 30-1
for every dollar deposited they leveraged $30 worth of transactions
New Re: They're basically just bets, right?
problem is no one actually knows the worth of these things. The underlying docs need to be unwound and sold individualually
New Worth?
What is my house "worth"? Is it worth what I paid for it plus improvements? Is it worth what I could sell it for? Is it worth what an appraiser says?

I'm lucky. I could probably sell my house for about what I think it's "worth". Lots of people are upside-down on $400k mortgages, in houses that wouldn't bring $200k in today's market. Their investment failed to perform. I don't see anyone writing bailout legislation to "fix" that problem. And they didn't lose the $600k they thought they would sell for, they lost the $400k they put in.

All these CDSs were investments. They failed to perform. They lost their investment, not the hoped-for future value of it.

You know, Bush signed lots of presidential orders and "signing statements" saying that regardless of the actual legislation, his administration would not prosecute certain activities. In the same spirit, congress could pass legislation saying that that activity is now (again) illegal. And that while the CDS contracts were valid, no federal court would assist in enforcing the terms of one written before the change. Declare the terms "unconscionable" and be done with it.
--

Drew
     So, what'll the CDSes cost us? - (Another Scott) - (12)
         They're basically just bets, right? - (drook) - (8)
             Would be great if it were that easy. - (Another Scott) - (5)
                 What's the lower number? - (drook) - (4)
                     I understand your argument, I think. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                         Getting from here to there is the hard part - (drook) - (1)
                             Re: Getting from here to there is the hard part - (jay)
                     I think the number is 30-1 - (boxley)
             Re: They're basically just bets, right? - (boxley) - (1)
                 Worth? - (drook)
         CDSes, in lieu of cash, should have been used to pay... - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
             Works for me -NT - (drook)
             since yer giving them away /me raises hand -NT - (boxley)

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