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New Russian analyst predicts US breakup
http://online.wsj.co...100709638419.html
For a decade, Russian academic Igor Panarin has been predicting the U.S. will fall apart in 2010. For most of that time, he admits, few took his argument -- that an economic and moral collapse will trigger a civil war and the eventual breakup of the U.S. -- very seriously. Now he's found an eager audience: Russian state media.

In recent weeks, he's been interviewed as much as twice a day about his predictions. "It's a record," says Prof. Panarin. "But I think the attention is going to grow even stronger."

Prof. Panarin, 50 years old, is not a fringe figure. A former KGB analyst, he is dean of the Russian Foreign Ministry's academy for future diplomats. He is invited to Kremlin receptions, lectures students, publishes books, and appears in the media as an expert on U.S.-Russia relations.

Interesting both in that the current Russian government is backing his view, at least indirectly, and that his view has a certain amount of merit.

I think his ideas of how the US would break down are misguided though. States with holding federal funds would be one of the last steps in a collapse, happening well after the social break down has made it inevitable. But the current arc of events certainly makes the possibility more likely.

His projection of what the US would look like after a break up is pure guesswork, but any such projection would be. It is too heavily dependent on the accidents of how the country fractures.

Jay
New I think Kunstler is more plausible.
Russia's in a much bigger mess than we are, because they're so dependent on oil and gas revenue and their economy is still dependent on foreign investment. Their battle with Georgia made many investors nervous.

http://www.bloomberg...5Vpo&refer=europe

The US isn't going to have a civil war or break up any time soon.

If one wants to consider stresses and consequences for the US, Kunstler is more plausible. In his 2009 predictions, he is talking about the DJIA hitting 4000 after a post-inauguration bump:

http://jameshowardku...ast-for-2009.html (it's pretty long)

[...]

A consensus in the blogoshpere says that the stock markets will rebound strongly during the first Obama months. This is possible just on the basis of pure "animal spirits," but the Obama Bounce will occur against a background of continued dismal business and financial news. It will appear to defy that news. By May of 2009, the stock markets will resume crashing with the ultimate destination of a Dow 4000 before the end of the year. Meanwhile, jobs will vanish by the millions and companies will go bankrupt by the thousands, especially in the so-called service sector, and in all the suppliers of such, along with the landlords in all the malls and strip malls. The desolation will mount quickly and will be obvious in the empty storefronts and trash-filled parking lagoons. In the event, two things will become increasingly clear to the nation: that the consumer economy is dead, and that there is no more available credit of the kind that Americans are in the habit of enjoying.

[...]

As Julian Darley of the Post Carbon Institute put it recently: "There won't be any energy bail-out." And, as many other people have noted, the recent plunge in oil prices strongly implies future supply destruction, since so many planned oil projects have been suspended or cancelled because they are economic losers at $40-a-barrel (or even $70). Even projects well underway, such as Canadian tar sand production, have been scaled back or shut down because they don't make sense at current prices. Some of these other newer projects will now never get underway -- they have missed their window of opportunity with so much capital leaving the system -- and so the hope of offsetting very-near-future depletions in old giant oil fields looks dimmer and dimmer.

Those depletions are very serious. For instance, Mexico's super-giant Cantarell oil field, the second-largest ever discovered after Saudi Arabia's Ghawar field, has shown a 30 percent depletion rate in the past year alone. (Pemex had forecast a 15 percent rate entering the year.) Cantarell provides over 60 percent of Mexico's total production, and Mexico is America's third largest source of imports -- just after Saudi Arabia (#2) and Canada (#1). Obviously, Mexico soon will lose its ability to export oil, and as that occurs, America is going to feel more than pinch -- more like a two-by-four upside the head. In short, remorseless depletion is underway and we are less likely now than even a year ago, to make up for it.

[...]

I'll forecast the that the US dollar is worth 40 percent of its current value by next Christmas.

[...]

There's been a lot of sentiment the past year that as the US and the Europe fall into economic disarray, China would emerge as the great new hegemonic superpower. While it's come a long way in a quarter-century, China's internal problems are still enormous and worsening. They're in trouble with water, food imports, mass unemployment, and energy. They have locked in some oil contracts around the world, but they are still susceptible to vagaries in the oil markets and Black Swan events. As the US consumer economy falls into a coma, and the shipping containers from China to WalMart get sparser, the Chinese government will face the wrath of millions of unemployed workers. I believe they will struggle through 2009, perhaps growing more surly as the US dollar inflates and their holdings of treasury bills begins to look more like a swindle.

Russia may be suffering economically for the moment due to the crash of oil prices, but they are energy resource-rich -- at least for the next couple of decades -- and if they don't like the current price, they can keep more of their oil in the ground until the price looks more attractive. I think Mr. Putin has the confidence of the Russian people and will survive the current malaise.

[...]


I think he's too gloomy about the economy, but there's little doubt that it is going to be painful. I fear he may be right about political events around the world. Russia is a wild card - it's hard to know what people really think there. China as well. I recall reading somewhere that China needs 10% annual GDP growth simply to keep up with the migration to the cities. If China's growth rate falls significantly, very bad things could happen.

I don't see a quick end to the battle between Israel and Hamas, either.

All it takes is the rise of a few Milosovics and the world could get even bloodier, and the conditions are converging for that. :-(

Cheers,
Scott.
New I welcome the gloomier predictions --
It is historical Fact that Muricans are so perpetually self-absorbed in trivialities, that only a Huge SHOCK !!! can get noses out of fluff-Tee Vee ... longer than to take a pee and fill up the Nacho bowl.

(I said, 'predictions', I welcome -- nobody in right mind would welcome the actuality.)
But unless there are enough and compelling-enough DOOM-scenarios noised about, Reported! about and actually chewed over:
We Will get the Actuality, IMhO.

(meta-prediction™?)



Fortunately too, the effect of the Unexpected-sort of Shocks-in-series -- can also galvanize a rare earth-wide spirit of cooperation
(unless someone as inept as a Shrub were in full-charge of a pivotal (ex-??) Power, in '09.)

Me.. I go for the Improbable -- as the few reliable (!?) Numbers are too depressingly inexorable.


Luck to us all.
Secret Sevice: no snoozing on the job. Wackos R'US
New geeze, can you at least wait until after 2010 superbowl?
New Not *JUST* Muricans...
Its all about the "It doesn't affect me, why should I care?" blase attitude. We have to be on the Brink of devastation to make changes.

IOW, we'd have to be facing *CERTAIN* extinction to change for the better. To stop pillaging to stop raping to stop back stabbing...

We would have to be facing absolutely overwhelming proof everywhere of our downfall (happening in our backyard type of thing) for people to "get it".

We know that [ most | some | a few ] human individuals are smart, but as [ groups | mobs | packs | gaggles ] humans are DUMB and react horribly as they can't be held accountable, or so they think when acting in "concert". The mentality is all over, corporate greed, the "They got theirs, I am too" stuff. The Government "Only protecting the nation" excuses. Many other examples are available and prove to the most part, humanity is doomed, until its too late... because then most will just say "Ah feck it, lets toke it up on the way out! Now, where was fifth of 35yr Scotch?"

Blah blah blah.
New does he copy and paste :-) its 1973 all over again
oil is going to run out!
drill baby drill!!
snnnzzzzzz

http://www.time.com/...71,944743,00.html
New Mythic Collapse
I've been predicting it for a while. My first clue: slow, surly service at McDonalds.

The real end: Katrina. Not the storm, the dissonance between our mythic power to overcome all disasters and what we actually did. In the American myth, which I believed as much as anybody, New Orleans might have suffered a setback, many people might have died, but within a few months, a year at the outside, there would be a need to put up memorials to remind people that something bad had happened. Old locals would know that it wasn't exactly as it used to be, but newcomers would have to read the historical markers to distinguish between the restored and the rebuilt.

Mythic collapse is the failure of the stories we tell ourselves that make us who we are. I'm not just talking about mytho-poetics here, although those are vital. There are harder and less pretty myths, like cash (what is unbacked currency?) and credit and the ideas that make technologies work. And constitutions, chains of command, etc. It is all story at heart. And it makes us who we are and gives us meaning and value.

I'm pretty sure that's what happened to the Maya - the story stopped making sense. Remember, they still exist, they just stopped being a major civilization and turned into a bunch of farmers. I know that's what happened to the USSR. Back in the early 1990s, it became obvious that it wasn't the Worker's Paradise and wasn't moving that way and the evil capitalists were actually doing a lot better at providing all the stuff Marx promised. The story stopped compelling, stopped making them who they were, stopped providing meaning. The little story, the ruble, had stopped providing meaning and value a lot earlier.

When the myth holds, the nation/culture does too. It is very, very hard to kill a nation/culture when the mythology is strong. You pretty much have to wipe it out to the last individual. But when the myth fails, the rest just melts away.

I think we are pretty close to that here.

But I don't see the USA breaking up like the USSR. The states LIKE being part of the US. Even in Palin's "pro-America" states, cessesionist movements have no traction. The USSR was held together by force. I have no idea what the wreckage will look like. But I think Obama will be it's first leader, which is pretty much the only bright spot.

New I think you put too much weight on Katrina.
The problem here is New Orleans needs to be abandoned and Katrina gave us the excuse. What do you do with a city that needs giant pumps running 24/7 to keep it above water? Especially in the face of global warming and rising sea levels? What do you do with a city that's tried to contain one of the world's great rivers - and is losing control.

I tell you what you do - you kind of neglect it until the river does what rivers do and we don't have to worry about it any more. That's what's happening there.

Here in California we belong to the Disaster of the Month Club, and it doesn't bother us, but we do laugh at those who bravely say, "We will rebuild" when they are in the very path of disaster - like New Orleans. Well, they're rich so we'll take their money to rebuild and wait for the next opportunity.

Of course, it the US does fall apart - we probably don't want Utah, but we're taking Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Oregon and Washington. If things are really a mess we'll take Baja too. We'll think about Idaho. We don't really want Oregon but it's in the way, between us and Washington.

Our armies will be named DWP and MWD and we'll raise the price of our exported lettuce, artichokes and grapes to pay for it all.

On the other hand, we could decide the Mississippi makes a nifty border.
Expand Edited by Andrew Grygus Dec. 31, 2008, 01:49:56 AM EST
New La República de California, eh?:)
Alex
New Hey
Sometimes you gotta revisit bad decisions.
New Our flag is ready.
Says "Republic of California" right there under the bear.

No, we won't be switching to Spanish. The Chinese, Vietnamese, Thais, Koreans, Armenians, Persians, Tibetans, Indians, Russians and most of the Mexicans and Salvadorans already know English.
New New Orleans is two things
The real, live population center may be disposable, perhaps it would even be better to get rid of it.

The mythical version, however....

We LOST A CITY. We didn't decide to abandon it (ahem - rebuild at a better location) we LOST it. We said we would rebuild it and we FAILED. We lost one of our own cities. Not just any city, one a good many of us have been to. America the invincible does not lose cities.

     Russian analyst predicts US breakup - (jay) - (11)
         I think Kunstler is more plausible. - (Another Scott) - (4)
             I welcome the gloomier predictions -- - (Ashton) - (2)
                 geeze, can you at least wait until after 2010 superbowl? -NT - (boxley)
                 Not *JUST* Muricans... - (folkert)
             does he copy and paste :-) its 1973 all over again - (boxley)
         Mythic Collapse - (mhuber) - (5)
             I think you put too much weight on Katrina. - (Andrew Grygus) - (4)
                 La República de California, eh?:) -NT - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                     Hey - (crazy)
                     Our flag is ready. - (Andrew Grygus)
                 New Orleans is two things - (mhuber)

The last time he socialized with us, he got flamed like a mosquito in a bug zapper.
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