Which is actually an improvement over the previous 6 years.

Post #298,751 by malraux 11/1/08 11:11:17 PM Reply	Which is actually an improvement over the previous 6 years. Regards, -scott <i>Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.</i>
Post #298,764 by crazy 11/2/08 10:55:51 AM Reply	By far And Beep, do we really not pay attention to the filibustering of the republicans? Or threat of since that is usually enough? Should the democrats go for the nuclear option, and kill filibustering the way the republicans threatened during the judicial approval time frame? So then you'd get ammo to say the democrats running roughshod over you? Repubs have the president, and enough votes to support most vetos. Repubs had a huge effect on the last 2 years, even in the minority. So crow all you want about a do nothing congress, the bottom line is until the repubs are pushed aside, nothing can get done. Of course, you won't like most of it anyway, so then you can switch to demonising what they are doing. You'll be happy no matter what, since it'll fit into the "all politicians are lazy and evil, but democrats are more lazy and evil" mindset you seem to have.
Post #298,767 by beepster 11/2/08 11:11:56 AM Reply	Excuses They came to power on an agenda and did nothing to make it happen. You can talk about "fillibuster" all you like...but it wasn't used. (are we electing people to be afraid of threats?) Please tell me all about the inaction regarding Fannie and Freddie when the reps were pushing it. Tell me how well >that< lack of action turned out. But...at least now we have National Watermelon Month and Idaho Potato Month. I know I can rest easy knowing there are people that will be given absolute power that have >that< kind of drive and ambition.
Post #298,769 by crazy 11/2/08 12:04:30 PM Reply	Nope Reasons. Which are the same thing, but interpreted according to the listener. If my boss gives me an impossible project, with an impossible timeline, I say sure, I'll give it a shot. Here's the REASONS what you want is impossible. Boss says: Don't give me excuses, get it done. I say: Maybe. Same thing everytime someone who only deals in absolutes attempts to direct but not understand what is going on, or who really doesn't care but wants to complain and tear down. It will always be excuses to you. I see no reason to go back and forth on Fannie/Freddie. Sure, they fucked up. And sure, they are used as a political piggy bank. But they didn't cause the meltdown. I caused it, along with my boss, and the CEO of (won't say, they were our client). I created the 1st marketing data warehouse system that targetted subprime borrowers about 10 years ago. This was a huge advantage to our client as they competed with other lenders. Our client ended up being the largest subprime lender for years. They of course rolled them up, and sold them as soon as they could. This launched the subprime feeding frenzy. Someone actually wrote a book about it, during the good times. The CEO was lionised, my boss got some good press, and my system was extolled as the cornerstone of their success. Fannie and Freddie (FF) were bit players in the loan origination arena, and they are far more strict than the "independent" lenders. FF's default rate is far lower than the others. Their involvement was in purchasing a lot of the rolled up blocks of mortgages, and at that point the vendors were lying to FF about the value of them. We were perfectly aware (at the tech - hey look at this data - level) that this could not last and probably be a disaster in a few years. Well, it took a bit longer. During the Clinton timeframe, economy was great, debt was low, deficit was shrinking, etc. Which meant home prices were bid up for a long time, allowing the refis to work. Bush went into major deficit spending, rebups pulled support for the agencies that were supposed to be enforcing the rules, and then they said it was the incompetent agencies fault, that damn "big" government that they were railing against. Well, it took a few more years of shell game shuffling before it all blew up.
Post #298,771 by Another Scott 11/2/08 12:18:34 PM Reply	! You really need to get cracking on those books in your head! :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #298,772 by beepster 11/2/08 12:24:50 PM Reply	Since they were handed the majority they have passed the fewest pieces of legislation of any 2 yr period. And you tell me its because the minority party "threatened" them? So you're telling me the bigger, stronger one was bullied by the smaller, weaker one...and gave up...and use that as an excuse (reason..whatever word you like)..and you bought it...hook, line, sinker. That must be good kool-aid. Crack style good.
Post #298,773 by Another Scott 11/2/08 12:38:04 PM Reply	I thought you, like Twain, liked an inactive Congress. Something like, "It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress." - Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar :-) Yeah, Reid and Pelosi didn't do much of anything except: Increase the minimum wage for the first time in ages, increase fuel efficiency standards for the first time in ages^2, rescue the world's financial system after it was nearly destroyed by action and inaction by the Republicans, etc. More is here: http://speaker.house.gov/about/ HTH! ;-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #298,775 by beepster 11/2/08 12:43:14 PM Reply	Rescue what???? They transferred 1T of your money to Wall Street...and nothing anywhere says we are out of the hole yet. And some of the really good news...the amount of money to some of the houses on Wall Street doesn't even cover their existing BONUS debt to execs. But did they make sure that the money couldn't go to that? Nope. I'd say you may want to hold off on congratulating them yet on that score. Ooh..and increasing fuel standards...does that solve anything???? Really? Will it help Detroit...or will it continue to favor Japanese and Korean companies that already meet and exceed those standards. But wait...they'll still get to save the economy..by giving more than the 25B they've already guaranteed to the automakers to bail them out too. So...they raised the min wage. Hurray. I'll be able to buy a couple more watermelons every July in celebration of my new National Holiday.
Post #298,781 by boxley 11/2/08 1:33:18 PM Reply	WTF are you smokin? rescue the world's financial system after it was nearly destroyed by action and inaction by the Republicans, etc. how did they do that? since the fucking meltdown isnt over yet and the only thing they have done is handed the treasury the money they asked for ans some extra money they didnt ask for Yes, Virginia, there really is an Obama Claus. You can hear him shouting, "On Pelosi, on Reid, on Kennedy, on Biden. Cash away, cash away, cash away all!"
Post #298,797 by Another Scott 11/2/08 4:20:05 PM Reply	Are you forgetting that the House Repubs voted against it? There's a lot to criticize about the bail out package, but things have gotten marginally better since it passed (at least as far as tightness in the credit markets is concerned). Have you forgotten how bad it was in the weeks after mid-September? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_crisis_of_2008 Remember Paulson's plan was 3 pages with no oversight and a blank check. The final bill, passed by the Democrats after substantial additions in the Senate, was far from perfect but much better. Do you think that things would have turned out half as well if Reps. Boehner, Cantor and Blunt and their colleagues had had their way? http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/220659.php FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #298,798 by boxley 11/2/08 4:47:47 PM Reply	that package saved the world? The dems were going to vote FOR the 3 page no oversight bill and the republicans and blue dog democrats stopped them. That fact thingy gets in the way of the democratic message Yes, Virginia, there really is an Obama Claus. You can hear him shouting, "On Pelosi, on Reid, on Kennedy, on Biden. Cash away, cash away, cash away all!"
Post #298,800 by Another Scott 11/2/08 4:57:36 PM Reply	That's not quite how it happened... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Economic_Stabilization_Act_of_2008 === begin cut === The original proposal was three pages, as submitted to the United States House of Representatives. The purpose of the plan was to purchase bad assets, reduce uncertainty regarding the worth of the remaining assets, and restore confidence in the credit markets. The text of the proposed law was expanded to 110 pages and was put forward as an amendment to H.R. 3997.[1] The amendment was rejected via a vote of the House of Representatives on September 29, 2008, by a margin of 228-205.[2] On October 1, 2008, the Senate debated and voted on an amendment to H.R. 1424, which substituted a newly revised version of the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 for the language of H.R. 1424.[3][4] The Senate accepted the amendment and passed the entire amended bill by a vote of 74-25.[5] Additional unrelated provisions added an estimated $150 billion to the cost of the package and increased the size of the bill to 451 pages.[6][7] See Public Law 110-343 for details on the added provisions. The amended version of H.R. 1424 was sent to the House for consideration, and on October 3, the House voted 263-171 to enact the bill into law.[3][8][9] President Bush signed the bill into law within hours of its enactment, creating a $700 billion Troubled Assets Relief Program to purchase failing bank assets.[10] [...] === end cut === HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #298,801 by boxley 11/2/08 5:06:22 PM Reply	that cant be right, there is only 202 republicans so want to tell me again how it was the republicans that stopped the first bill? Why not just admit that the first go round sucked badly, second wasnt much better, just fatter but bi-partisan Yes, Virginia, there really is an Obama Claus. You can hear him shouting, "On Pelosi, on Reid, on Kennedy, on Biden. Cash away, cash away, cash away all!"
Post #298,807 by Another Scott 11/2/08 5:26:58 PM Reply	You like right-shifts, don't you. ;-) We all know that neither side liked the idea of a Wall Street bailout. The only way it was going to pass was if there was credible signs of bi-partisanship from both sides. The Democrats weren't going to take the fall alone for this package. I can't find a link, but in the initial House vote, the Republicans were something like 12 votes short of what their leadership had promised. The Democrats supplied their votes - if the Republicans had supplied all they promised, the bill would have passed. Oh, don't forget that the Republicans were initially demanding a "clean bill": http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13675.html Pelosi, on the other hand, said from the beginning that she wasn't going to give Paulson a "blank check": http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/21/politics/politico/thecrypt/main4463510.shtml If you're concerned about protecting the taxpayer and want oversight, you should be happy that Barack and Nancy got their way. HTH! ;-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #298,813 by boxley 11/2/08 7:05:53 PM Reply	Im just glad chambly and stevens kept pelosi and reid honest Yes, Virginia, there really is an Obama Claus. You can hear him shouting, "On Pelosi, on Reid, on Kennedy, on Biden. Cash away, cash away, cash away all!"
Post #298,823 by crazy 11/2/08 8:20:42 PM Reply	No matter how much good comes out of the next administration, you'll NEVER be happy. Know why? There will be bargaining. In the bargaining, some will gain pork. You know it'll happen. So, if the goal of the side that wants the "pure" bill, the wonderful "who the fuck knows will cure cancer bill", but others (in both parties) know that they can get pork added if they resist, so the "pure" side gives in and lets it happen, since they are sure their bill is the best thing that could happen to this country, and the pork they use to grease it through will let it happen. So let's say that bill does actually what it was supposed to do. You'll say: Those f'ing tax and spend democrats, you know they screwed us with that bill because Pelosi threw some pork into her district. So it really doesn't matter what you think, since you are a true believer, and no matter what happens, it'll fail your litmus test. Beep at least seems (or pretends well enough) to have plausible deniability on his rants, ie: given more information he might be persuaded that he might look at your side of the argument. On the other hand, I always supect him of a religious hidden agenda. While it very rarely comes out, I know it has a very strong influence on him. So he has his own set of litmus tests, but they aren't discussed.
Post #298,827 by Another Scott 11/2/08 8:29:42 PM Reply	I think you're misreading Box. Remember, he voted for Obama in the primary. He also was a big supporter of Uncle Ted Stevens - including supporting Stevens's shipping pork back to Alaska. Box gets upset when civil liberties votes don't go the way he thinks they should. When that happens, Hell hath no fury... I think he likes arguing with me, too. ;-) HTH! Cheers, Scott.
Post #298,831 by boxley 11/2/08 8:41:32 PM Reply	no I dont :-) Yes, Virginia, there really is an Obama Claus. You can hear him shouting, "On Pelosi, on Reid, on Kennedy, on Biden. Cash away, cash away, cash away all!"
Post #298,830 by boxley 11/2/08 8:41:02 PM Reply	dunno about religious agenda I belong to a congregation of one :-) freedom baby, thats where its at. Dont care about useful pork care about folks who pretend that all they need is a turn at the trough and things will be better, because all too often the true believers buy that Dont want to be safe, I would rather be free and both candidates voted to ensure that the screws of the man will be tightened to my personal detriment. My liberty and privacy are reduced to shit heads in aviator shades with tasers and chewing gum. Let mamound's boys come, we will survive then go kill them at home. The nsa boys playing a tape of a poor lonely soldier talking sex talk with his wife for the amusement of the other security creatures, that is what voting against the last patriot act bill would have stopped, nope dear leader signed on as did pappy that is why I wont vote for him Yes, Virginia, there really is an Obama Claus. You can hear him shouting, "On Pelosi, on Reid, on Kennedy, on Biden. Cash away, cash away, cash away all!"
Post #298,835 by crazy 11/2/08 8:52:07 PM Reply	Fine, you've stated your test Then the discussion is over, except for the entertainment value. I agree with you that the bill sucked, has been horrible for the country, yadda yadda yadda. Now, back to today's world. You asshole. Make a decision based on the world you live in and the options that are in front of you.
Post #298,836 by crazy 11/2/08 8:56:21 PM 11/2/08 8:57:22 PM Reply	One more thing <b> The nsa boys playing a tape of a poor lonely soldier talking sex talk with his wife for the amusement of the other security creatures, that is what voting against the last patriot act bill would have stopped, nope dear leader signed on as did pappy </b> Bullshit. The patriot bill did not authorise ANY of that. That was pure illegal, Bush simply used the patriot as cover. He would have done it anyway, and used some other legal fiction. Edit: How do I bold or left bar, etc? Edited by crazy Nov. 2, 2008, 08:57:22 PM EST Expand All History
Post #298,837 by beepster 11/2/08 9:05:23 PM Reply	Funny you still think all that started with Bush and/or the Patriot Act How quaint.
Post #298,839 by crazy 11/2/08 9:29:59 PM 11/2/08 9:39:33 PM Reply	Not at all Just that particular violation was after that bill. If you reread it, I said the patriot bill had nothing to do with it. Box was the one who said otherwise. And while I fully expect anyone in power to abuse it, the recent history shows Bush is both irrational and abused it. I'd prefer someone rational. And I don't think McCain is anymore. Edited by crazy Nov. 2, 2008, 09:39:33 PM EST Expand All History
Post #298,842 by boxley 11/2/08 9:40:39 PM Reply	Re: One more thing the patriot act allows the government to do whatever it wishs establishing the immunity of any business entity that breaks the law while helping the government, legal cover for all of that now you say I should ignore that Okay, ignoring that gives me a plausable calm black guy who is exactly like the crazy old fart, who uses advisors just as dirty in the financial meltdown as the crazy old fart. Voted with mccain 90% of the time and is more of the same with the exception a bullet proof majority in the legislative arena We have had 6 years of that followed by 2 years of nothing and how sis that work out for the country. The smart vote is a veto proof legslative arena and a president of the other party. That is the smart move because I cant vote for the crazy old fart for the same reasons I cant vote for the black guy I voted for Bob Barr. you want a train wreck like shrubs first term with the house and senate rubber stamping every cheny idea feel free. If you dont think there is a cheney like person waiting in the wings, I got a bridge in brooklyn for sale. Yes, Virginia, there really is an Obama Claus. You can hear him shouting, "On Pelosi, on Reid, on Kennedy, on Biden. Cash away, cash away, cash away all!"
Post #298,843 by crazy 11/2/08 9:45:43 PM Reply	Windmills dude ~1%
Post #298,845 by boxley 11/2/08 10:46:43 PM Reply	yup, have the scars to prove it Yes, Virginia, there really is an Obama Claus. You can hear him shouting, "On Pelosi, on Reid, on Kennedy, on Biden. Cash away, cash away, cash away all!"
Post #298,777 by crazy 11/2/08 1:20:37 PM Reply	Yup When there are teeth to those threats, and wimpy democrats don't do scortched earth politics, they have to actually compromise. In order to get ANYTHING passed, yah know? No, you don't. You'd rather throw rocks. Actually, you'd have preferred the last 2 years was a bunch of government stoppages. Then you could point to the evil democrats. One of the differences in the style between Ds vs Rs is obvious. Rs are true believers, and don't let facts get in their way. Ds tend to overanalyze, and get bogged down in debate. Rs call Ds flip-floppers when new facts show up and show they were wrong in a particular opinion, and they change their mind. You guys have actually made a sin out of rational thought. So what we needs are a couple of Ds to corral the rest, and push hard, ignoring the bad press they might get in the process. Doesn't matter. They tried to play nice. I hope they learned their lesson, and if you play nice with republicans you get screwed. So the only option is to wait it out, until the next election cycle, and get the numbers up so they can stop playing the republican game. I'd be quite happy if the incipient redistricting game solidified the dem position, just like the repubs did. So you can get back to me in 8 years to comment on how it all works out.
Post #298,785 by beepster 11/2/08 2:00:25 PM Reply	What I'd like is for them to have done their job. Poor wimpy little Democrats. I feel all sorry for them now that you have shown me that we pay them for life to be spineless weasels. Whatever you're smoking is better than anything I ever had in college...I can tell you that ;-)
Post #298,786 by crazy 11/2/08 2:07:35 PM Reply	Oh, I GUARANTEE that! Maybe I'll bring some to you.
Post #298,780 by boxley 11/2/08 1:29:53 PM Reply	there is a reason the repos didnt use the nuke button when they had the power to do so, Yes, Virginia, there really is an Obama Claus. You can hear him shouting, "On Pelosi, on Reid, on Kennedy, on Biden. Cash away, cash away, cash away all!"
Post #298,783 by crazy 11/2/08 1:56:05 PM Reply	And??? Jeez box, at least tell me what it was.
Post #298,788 by boxley 11/2/08 2:40:29 PM Reply	because if they did, the dems would do it to them if they took power, like they have Yes, Virginia, there really is an Obama Claus. You can hear him shouting, "On Pelosi, on Reid, on Kennedy, on Biden. Cash away, cash away, cash away all!"
Post #298,791 by crazy 11/2/08 2:48:46 PM Reply	Bullshit It was unnecessary. The threat got their judges seated. These guys do NOT think about the next cycle unless it is specifically about their own reelection. Why should they? Their base is happy with their actions, and would be perfectly happy to send them back (for the most part) if they pulled the trigger. The dems might actually HAVE to use it, since they are seen as wimpy and won't. Threatening won't be enough, since they won't be believed. Very few things scarier then a wimpy underdog that is pushed to far. At least for people they don't like. Columbine comes to mind.
Post #298,793 by boxley 11/2/08 3:15:07 PM Reply	democrats are going back to their roots? bull conner, night riders, the snitch army. yeah, wouldnt surprise me thanx, bill Yes, Virginia, there really is an Obama Claus. You can hear him shouting, "On Pelosi, on Reid, on Kennedy, on Biden. Cash away, cash away, cash away all!"
Post #298,795 by crazy 11/2/08 3:22:10 PM Reply	Ah, classic Rather than discuss the issue, go fer FUD.
Post #298,799 by boxley 11/2/08 4:48:31 PM Reply	you brought up columbine as an example of democrats Yes, Virginia, there really is an Obama Claus. You can hear him shouting, "On Pelosi, on Reid, on Kennedy, on Biden. Cash away, cash away, cash away all!"
Post #298,810 by Ashton 11/2/08 6:45:45 PM Reply	And Beepn'Box perfectly symbolize that modern koan, The enemy of the good is the Perfect. [short form] Neither of you can perform - produce predictable Results! via your arrogated 'expertise', I aver. You pretend to a grokking to fullness: that which Never Can Be grokked to fullness. Your models are imperfect and by Schrödinger's fucking cat: there never shall Be such a model [Long form, optional] Anything less that total-capitulation to your joint-worship of the ravings of Ayn, anything less than your perpetual illusion that such a thing as a totaly- 'Free Market' -- ever could exist (beyond fanciful on-paper musings) == is, by definition fodder for your incessant one-liner slogans. You two are perilously close to (at least the mannerisms of) My Gramma. Absolutists, despising 'authority' while wishing to impose a form of that: your simple ideas of a Pefection which simply, cannot exist! within the (Chaos Theory / fractal geometry - NOT linear differential equations) nature of worldwide 'Econ'. Gödel's Proof shall have to suffice: within any system of math, there shall be found Truths which cannot be derived from the axioms. And like the committee-written 100M+ lines of Windoze code: no one human can possibly grok the infinite localized-feedback loops which, cumulatively--and often accidentally--allow billions of daily guesses/then transactions to ... "seem smart to That particular transactor." Stuff. your. (both) knowing-smirky ripostes, behaving as if you "understand" how that massive kluge Actually Works -- or gets by, ~seeming-to ... well enough for the RMS transactions to sort of keep going on. The mattresses are getting stuffed; similarly the whole <Faith-based> grease of daily commerce is getting Stuffed. Even waking up to finally employing -seriously- new fractal models of parseable-parts of the mega-whole (?) will take time. And some much-Braver economists manning the barricades. Crap shoot, that. And even then, as with 'IQ', there are No Formulas for acting effectively to create fearless withdrawals from all those mattresses == THAT shall ever require niceties of both psych and psyche massaging: a v.soft 'science' which cannot be reduced to numbers for the comfort of spreadsheet mindsets. Or, just take the easy way - further perfect your MyGramma transformation, and start using no-CAPS: 'box' it is. You're IN one. [you think you Know] I think you Don't. carrion
Post #298,815 by boxley 11/2/08 7:10:44 PM Reply	I know one thing when the P&E is <10* its time to buy, too bad I dont have any money econ is easy, dont be fucking greedy, that is what the problem is and all the mba's and your Keynesian and your marxists and your Rand dont get, there is no way for most people to be "not greedy" so these models fail time after time. Its the point you apparently dont get as you keep buying into the failed policies that got us here Yes, Virginia, there really is an Obama Claus. You can hear him shouting, "On Pelosi, on Reid, on Kennedy, on Biden. Cash away, cash away, cash away all!"
Post #298,820 by beepster 11/2/08 7:41:18 PM Reply	Nice rant too bad you still haven't figured out where I stand on things. Rand was a idealistic fool, nearly as bad as you as far as I can tell...just on the opposite of the spectrum. I'm nowhere near an absolutist, as you seem to think. Lots and lots of gray out there. Your problem seems to stem from the fact that there are some people who disagree fundamentally with the way you "know" things to be...which can't be possible since your way must be "the" way. After all, this seems to be the basis by which you judge our way to be incorrect, correct? You forget I started all so long ago in these environs as a supporter of antitrust legislation, recognizing its need because I know, through education as well as general observation that the "invisible hand" doesn't always work. But this is an inconvenient truth for you...as your views of my views depend on something entirely different. Oh well...

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