Post #294,028
10/2/07 9:01:01 AM
10/2/07 9:02:01 AM
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I do think some of your analysis is correct
Additionally, without a specific name to defend and rally the flag around, they would be forced quickly into an "issue" debate which is NOT what they are looking to do. Thats not how they work. I agree they're trying to avoid an "issue" debate, which is why they attacked the attacker. Therefore, I don't think it would've mattered at all had they mentioned the name or not, any criticism of all was going to be attacked. In short, your "evidence" leads me to disagree with you. [on edit] damn, didn't mean to open this as a new topic.
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Post #294,030
10/2/07 9:21:05 AM
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Methodology
By launching the attack in a full page ad, they initiated the battle. Had they done this critique (and many did) in an op-ed format, they wouldn't have invited the attack.
There were dozens of op-eds critiquing the Gen and none were part of the debate.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #294,033
10/2/07 9:42:49 AM
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My point exactly
By launching the attack in a full page ad, they initiated the battle. Had they done this critique (and many did) in an op-ed format, they wouldn't have invited They weren't attacked because they said "Betray Us". They were attacked because they pulled a full page ad out and were questioning the President's plan on Iraq. The fact that they used "Betray Us" wasn't the issue, it was merely an opening for Republican to attack. Their words and brow-beating about not attacking a military office had nothing to do it. If one of their own does it (say for charging people for doing their jobs - Abu Ghraib / Sniper baiting) they're let off the hook because, in the end, they don't want to attack their own.
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Post #294,035
10/2/07 9:53:26 AM
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Re: My point exactly
Minor disagreement, the fact they said "betray us" gave the spin machine an non-issue related topic to hammer on. They no longer needed to focus on the content, only the man and his service.
Moveon made it easy.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #294,036
10/2/07 9:55:17 AM
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Betray us
in order to logically attack the Betray us part of the ad
it is necessary to believe that the claim (or suggestion) that the general has indeed betrayed us is false
it would seem that the only way to do that is to ignore his statements over the years
there were massive attacks on Westmoreland, and others, during Vietnam
they were true too
A
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Post #294,040
10/2/07 11:07:01 AM
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This is not logic, its a sound bite battle.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #294,043
10/2/07 11:49:34 AM
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From the outside looking in
sound-bite battles no longer matter. When are the blatant fascists running things down there going to get the levers of power taken away from them?
Another way to look at it; every time the national dialogue goes the way of the SBBs, the nation drags itself deeper into the midden.
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Post #294,045
10/2/07 12:09:09 PM
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Its an election cycle
unfortunately it started way too soon and will thus last way too long. Sound bite battles are how its done now and they actually do matter. Maybe not to you...(but you're from the Great White North)
It has little to do with who is currently in power and more to do with those charged with getting them and/or keeping them in power.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #294,057
10/2/07 4:37:42 PM
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They HAD to do it in an ad, AFAICS.
For one thing, MoveOn aren't editors of any paper; thus, don't get to write editorials.
For another, you say yourself (and the evidence so far seems to support) that it's perfectly OK to write the same thing in editorials; even conservatives do -- but "none were part of the debate", because nobody gives a fuck about them!
That's because editorials are written in tiny print (and far too much of it), and don't have any pictures, nor even a really catchy headline(*). That is why nobody READS the damn things(+)... And *that* is why the Noise Machine is perfectly content with people writing stuff like that in boring editorials.
But NOT in catchy ads that the *unwashed masses* might actually READ and absorb.
(And that, of course, was why MoveOn had to do it that way.)
(*): Like, yes, exactly: "General Petraeus or General Betray Us?".
(+): Oh, sure, the usual suspects: "The chattering classes", who go off to repeat or refute it in editorials of their own; and nowadays, some bloggers, who thanks to the new media mechnology (i.e, the WWW and blogs) get to be The New Chattering Class and do the same among themselves as their predecessors do in print. But not the huge majority of the electorate.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
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Post #294,060
10/2/07 4:46:22 PM
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Anyone can write an op-ed
and getting it published is a non issue. the NYT would do it instantly. You don't need to own a paper. Most of the big guys are syndicated and appear in multiple papers.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #294,061
10/2/07 5:19:44 PM
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Ah yes, that would be sooooooooo effective.
Everybody would be talking about it for months!
Well, maybe in some parallel universe very unlike this one.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #294,066
10/2/07 8:37:57 PM
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I'm glad you both agree with me
because this thread is about why the op-ed mentioned in the first post wouldn't generate the same response as the moveon ad.
I believe my quote was "if they'd done it in a non specific way AND in an op-ed, its quite likely there would have been no complaints. None at all."
Sounds like you're in my corner.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #294,082
10/3/07 3:48:37 AM
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Only problem is, you're still, as you've done all along...
...sounding as if you're defending *the complaints*, not the obviously-correct actual factual content of the ad.
And there, at least I don't agree with you at all. (And I very much doubt the Gryge does either.)
(But nooo, of course you're not shilling for the Repugnicans, oh no, of *course* not; you never were. You only happen to *sound* exactly as if you did, ALL the time.)
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
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Post #294,088
10/3/07 6:55:34 AM
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I'm ok with your fantasies
Been dealing with them here for pretty much ever.
I quoted myself exactly.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #294,090
10/3/07 7:27:27 AM
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Oh shutup. You have no time to kibitz with me anyway, you...
...have a lot of packing to do.
(Also, you have to get used to eating roadkill; I hear that's all they have to eat in the OJ state.)
;-)
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
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Post #294,092
10/3/07 7:38:55 AM
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Too much Carl Hiaasen?
Between the governor crack and the preoccupation with road kill, it sure looks like it.
On the other paw, it may not be possible to read too much Hiaasen...
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Post #294,096
10/3/07 10:25:02 AM
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'Xackly: Yes, but no.
Yup, that's where it came from. (Can't you just see the Gryge as a settled-down Skink? :-)
And no, of course you can never get too much of a good thing!
Ouch: Except now there aren't any more left to read. :-(
Write, Hiaasen, write, damn you!
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
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Post #294,063
10/2/07 5:56:20 PM
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Seems you read my post as if it were one. Q.E.D.
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