Nope. Navigator = Expedition. GVW <> Curb Weight.

Post #29,342 by Another Scott 2/22/02 7:45:41 AM Reply	Nope. Navigator = Expedition. GVW <> Curb Weight. We went through this before, but I can't find the post in a Google search. :-) The number you're quoting is the Gross Vehicle Weight of an Expedition (the middle Ford SUV. Same chassis as the Lincoln Navigator). That's the maximum weight it'll carry. The Curb Weight (the weight of just the vehicle) is substantially less. Around 4900 - 5400 pounds (depending on options) for a police version according to [link\|http://www.fleet.ford.com/products/specialty_vehicles/2002Expedition_special_vehicle.asp\|this] Ford page. In contrast, the Excursion's Curb Weight is 6600 - 7600 pounds [link\|http://www.fleet.ford.com/products/specialty_vehicles/2002Excursion_special_vehicle.asp\|here]. Note that the Excursion is ULEV (an Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle). :-P If one of your gripes about UAVs is that people use them as commuter cars (they don't carry anything in them), then it doesn't make sense to use the GVW number (the maximum fully-loaded weight) in a rant against them. If you want to use the Curb Weight, then it helps to get the vehicle name right. In my humble opinion anyway. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #29,435 by Ashton 2/22/02 5:03:57 PM Reply	Yeah we did.. and ONE of those Does Weigh 7300# ..and I mean CURB WEIGHT. I recall finding that - pity that Zope is fucked re any decent search except via web. Will google it to death; meanwhile, here's the clincher as to the more realistic day-day hazards experienced by folks who haven't the foggiest what "GVW" might mean (nor find that number readily listed in their UAV, either) and who have likely never taken an "accident evasion" course in entire lives... and damn sure don't know what F=MA might mean. [link\|http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/driving/articles/46586/article.html\|Miniscule Carrying Capacities of these Rollovers Waiting to Happen] Also - note how the CG of the vehicle will be further RAISED as anything is loaded - especially something itself 'top-heavy'... Guess you didn't watch Frontline "Rollover" last night? A.
Post #29,477 by Another Scott 2/23/02 9:50:35 AM Reply	No need. I remember some mechanics. :-) My dad has an Expedition. It's big on the outside and surprisingly small on the inside. I don't like it much when I have to ride in it, but there you are. He doesn't do a lot of driving in it. He uses it for long trips and to haul stuff (he's got 14 acres and a big house to care for). I agree with some of your ranting against UAVs. I think gas guzzler taxes should be imposed on these things to try to make them less popular, and that they should be forced to meet (substantially) the same safety rules as cars (with caveats like that an SUV will always be easier to roll than a Turbo Carerra), and they should meet the same emissions standards as cars, and the tax rules should be examined so that tax breaks aren't given to persons/businesses that purchase > 6000 pound GVW vechicles (as I believe is the case now - something that encourages them in some cases to purchase the bigger vehicle when the smaller one will do). But I also believe that they should be available for purchase by people who are willing to pay the price. Just recently a young woman was driving her new Explorer home from the dealer, following a friend on the Beltway. It was a very windy day (gusts to 40+ mph). Traffic was heavy and they got separated. She was talking with him on her cell phone, something happened, she crossed the center barrier, the Explorer flipped over onto an oncoming minivan and she and 4 others in the minivan were killed. (I may have misremembered some of the details.) Lots of things combined to cause a terrible accident - distraction, speed, high CG, high wind, ineffective center barrier, inexperience driver in a new vehicle, etc. It might have never happened if even one of those factors was absent. And it might have happened anyway if she'd been in a different car... Cheers, Scott.
Post #29,485 by Ashton 2/23/02 3:39:46 PM Reply	Agreement. Yes, I also agree that people should have the choice, just as - re skydiving, high-wire walking and.. (and if smoking & alcohol are legal - marijuana isn't even lethal! Speaking of 'risks'.) The accident you cite kinda dovetails with a similar (nonlethal) event: while Frontline was filming the Rollover show: they heard a crash nearby - upside down UAV! (not an Explorer this time). Synchronicity ? BUT.. all the rest you mentioned. If it is social engineering to publicize the negatives of these turnover machines, to tax them as the disincentives they represent re the [oil] burden - and as an incitement for our next oil-wars: then I guess I'm for that level of social engineering. It indeed appears to be a direction which aids survival of us all, who have to share the roads with these time-bombs. If I must have a HumVee, for whatever early psychological damage has caused me to 'need' the security of a tank or the look-at-me notoriety (?) - I should not be told NO by Big Daddy - but I should pay for the potential hazard I represent to every other driver, via their mistake or my own: which results in my riding-over all their safety barriers and slicing off their passenger compartment. Ditto when I rollover into path of an innocent. Guess we agree that this falls under that Popular rubric, personal responsibility. I think the program also points out that it is virtually impossible to exaggerate the pure cupidity of the Corporate mind - in daily action, in the face of stark knowledge of the consequences for a statistically predictable number of victims. Somehow the equation which balances x-lawsuits/deaths VS a net profit of sometimes $20K/car needs to be balanced by a FINE of similar cynicism towards the perps in suits. (Same lethal arithmetic as 30 yrs. ago - re the Pinto gas tank = also at Ford.) Ford isn't alone - just the most blatant to date. (But that last is likely dreaming, in Murica 2002.) Cheers, Ashton Working for Ford must feel a lot like working for M$.. I wonder about next: for how long 'we' will continue to deem that Corps are immune to every consequence of decisions like the above ones; for marketing lies - known to be lies at the time. Goes to the heart ---> of 'hype', no?

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