Post #29,298
2/21/02 6:18:12 PM
|
Oped: Conservatism defined
[link|http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg.shtml|Any questions?]
Excerpt:
The United States was launched as a new kind of nation with new kinds of institutions. Hence, in America conservatives sought to conserve these institutions. Many of the ideas put forward by Jefferson, Hamilton, and Madison are perniciously radical to conservatives in monarchical societies like those found in 18th-century Europe or 21st-century Saudi Arabia. But here you aren't a radical, you're a conservative if you try to conserve notions of liberty, private property, a free press, etc. This is why Friedrich Hayek believed that "conservatives" in the United States were still classical liberals and hence lovers of liberty \ufffd because we intend to preserve those institutions and ideas set forth by the Founders.
Today, so much of conservatism isn't an attempt to conserve at all, but to impose an ideological agenda. We talk about "taking back" and "tearing down" left-wing institutions which shouldn't be left-wing or right-wing at all. Universities, for example, are supposed to be dedicated to abstractions \ufffd truth, learning, free inquiry \ufffd not agendas. But the Left has decided to infuse their ideological agenda into the schools. They ridicule the "idea" that "Truth" exists and conservatives in response have been forced to make abstractions into ideological issues too. It's just very sad.
Personally, I wish that we didn't need ideology. As Russell Kirk was fond of noting (but as H. Stuart Hughes said), conservatism is "the negation of ideology." Conservatism is supposed to be practical. It is supposed to muddle through and rely on democratic and undemocratic institutions (the university, for example, precedes democracy by centuries) to dilute and channel ideological fervor in a constructive manner. Politics is not supposed to be about everything. There should not be "conservative" universities or conservative "art." When I hear people talk about the need for such things I find it deeply depressing because it shows how profoundly ideological considerations have penetrated into the warp and woof of everyday life.
I say:
When Leftists ideologues say there is no real truth, the truth itself becomes politicized. But remember, truth was here first.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
|
Post #29,306
2/21/02 7:31:59 PM
|
Re: Oped: Conservatism defined
Nice bit of idealism, but doesn't much reflect the reality.
As the author himself notes, Conservatism doesn't say anything about what you are trying to conserve. While in theory American conservatives work to conserve freedom, liberty and justice, in practice they are more likely to be conserving posistions of power, privilage and wealth.
And that's avoid the huge problem that many things that conservatives are trying to conserve are things that the Founding Fathers would have or did reject themselves.
Consider just how many conservatives are trying to conserve or reclaim America as a "Christian" nation. Avoiding all out the fact that the nation, when founded, was far less "Christian" then it is today. I put Christian in quotes there because I don't mean Christian in general, but rather Christian in the fundamentaist / hollow sense used by most people today.
Another place where conservatives and history clash is over military. Conservatives today seek to maintain or even expand our military, despite the fact that the founders sought to minimize it.
Even something as simple as the conservative desire to return to the "tradional" nuclear family ignores the fact that such families where rare until the 1900's and families operated in a very different way before then.
In any case, his assertion that Conservatism is not ideological is absurd. Conservatism itself may not contain any ideology, but the moment you begin to make decisions about what is worth preserving and what is not you have ideology.
Jay
|
Post #29,370
2/22/02 11:28:58 AM
|
About the nuclear family.
Though you dodge the point in more ways than I can count, I'll just address the most blatant case.
The whole nuclear family is a stepdown from the extended family that preceded it. It constitutes a compromise between the extended family and no family. And the conservatives who espouse the nuclear family, instead of the extended family, are in fact capitulating. The gratitude of their opponents for this willingness to meet halfway is underwhelming.
I think it was mistake for modern conservatives to make this sort of concession. To an ideologue, any concession is a sign of weakness, not of reasonability.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
|
Post #29,394
2/22/02 1:24:06 PM
|
Actually it worse then that
The information I have says that very existance of the extended family was something of a myth.
Even in the peak years of the early 1900s, the highest percent of families living in extended families was 25% and even that was only found among recent emigrants.
When I was talking about the tradional nuclear family not being common, I meant that at the time the country was founded there where far higher percentages of both people that never got married and people who had one or more parents die before they reached 20.
In 17th century Virgina, for instance, more then 1/3 of children lost both parents.
Jay
|
Post #29,372
2/22/02 11:38:20 AM
|
Also, about that military thing.
That was a concession to reality, and there's nothing wrong with that. It wasn't any "new" reality, either, so shut up all you "things change and we must keep up-to-date in our thinking" yammerers. It was the ancient reality that those who don't defend themselves adequately are doomed.
Reality doesn't respond to concessions in a mean manner. (At least not to concessions made to it.) Rather, it punishes refusal to concede. And this is why it's good to make concessions to long term reality, but not to ideological opponents. To the ideologue, concession is a sign of weakness, to be exploited. To reality, concession is a friendly overture, to be rewarded.
And we shouldn't concede too much to short term reality, either. It'll change back and catch you unprepared. Clinton did that with his fiscal priorities, and now the U.S.S. Kennedy is scrambling to get itself back into fighting trim.
Truth is that which is the case. Long term Truth is that which remains the case over time. All of you quit your pomo whining and deal with it.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
|
Post #29,377
2/22/02 12:13:28 PM
|
Whoa there!
Truth is that which is the case. Again, 1 + 1 = 2. Nice revelation. Long term Truth is that which remains the case over time. HOLD IT RIGHT THERE!!! Does that mean that the "Truth" on Tuesday is not the "Truth" on Wednesday? "Truth" changes over time? All of you quit your pomo whining and deal with it. For those who do not know, "pomo" is Marlowe's cute abreviation for "postmodern". Although he doesn't know what "postmodern" means (just like he doesn't know what "Truth" means). He likes to sprinkle such words throughout his posts so it will seem that he is more intellectual than he really is. You see, "postmodern" in a political sense would be 1950's values (or there abouts) because "modern" in a political sense would be "political correctness". So when he says "postmodern" he means "conservative". Wellllllllllllllll......... >HE< doesn't mean "conservative". Which is the really funny part of the joke.
|
Post #29,380
2/22/02 12:36:52 PM
|
Re: Oped: Conservatism defined
As the author himself notes, Conservatism doesn't say anything about what you are trying to conserve. While in theory American conservatives work to conserve freedom, liberty and justice, in practice they are more likely to be conserving posistions of power, privilage and wealth. And how does that differ from a typical "liberal"? Both sides of the idiological aisle have lots of moneygrubbing SOB's. Both sides have some people who really are true to their beliefs and aren't moneygrubbing SOB's.
Where each demon is slain, more hate is raised, yet hate unchecked also multiplies. - L. E. Modesitt, from his Recluse series
|
Post #29,389
2/22/02 1:06:25 PM
|
How it differs
And how does that differ from a typical "liberal"
While in theory Libers work to increase freedom, liberty and justice, in practice they are more likely to be working to get their own posistions of power, privilage and wealth.
Not to say I think Liberals and Conservatives are perfect mirrors. I think that, in broad generalities, more liberals are honestly trying to do what is right, while more conservatives are cynically or unthinkingly trying to maintain their priviliges. However, more liberals are blind to what the real consequences of their actions are, and are therefore more likely to mess things up.
Jay
|
Post #29,392
2/22/02 1:14:27 PM
|
Amazing truths
I'm still blinking at your insights.
Liberals (so-called) do tend to act on "good intentions" or at least what sounds like good intentions. "It's for the children!" (gag)
Conservatives at least tend more to try to figure out what the results are.
But as I've said before, "liberal" and "conservative" isn't a good description of the political spectrum. Classical liberalism isn't today's liberalism; classical conservatism isn't today's conservatism.
Where each demon is slain, more hate is raised, yet hate unchecked also multiplies. - L. E. Modesitt, from his Recluse series
|
Post #29,395
2/22/02 1:26:43 PM
|
The real diff between modern "liberals" and "conservatives"
"Liberals" want to give us absolute freedom in some areas, and overweening government control or PC coercion in other areas.
With the "conservatives" it's the other way around.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
|
Post #29,407
2/22/02 2:03:18 PM
|
Exactly.
"Conservatives", or at least the beast that passes for conservative in this country want to give us overweening government control or anti-PC coersion in some areas, and absolute freedom in other areas.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
|
Post #29,307
2/21/02 7:46:21 PM
|
And I'll ask it again.
When Leftists ideologues say there is no real truth, the truth itself becomes politicized. But remember, truth was here first. Tell me what the "truth" is.
|
Post #29,309
2/21/02 7:55:36 PM
|
what the truth "is"
sh*t we cant even define what "is" is. thanx, bill
"I'm selling a hammer," he says. "They can beat nails with it, or their dog." Richard Eaton spy software innovator
|
Post #29,311
2/21/02 8:05:21 PM
|
No dodging, no jokes, no bullshit.
This is the second time he's made statements about the "truth". When Leftists ideologues say there is no real truth, the truth itself becomes politicized. But remember, truth was here first. I'm waiting for him to clarify what he's saying. He seems to know alot about the "truth". Let's see what he says the "truth" is. I'm going to go out on a limb and make a prediction. He won't be able to answer. Not without attempting to make it a joke or a dodge.
|
Post #29,313
2/21/02 8:42:06 PM
|
Good question.
And I doubt he'll have a satisfactory answer.
I think if you look in the file "earth.h", you'll find that CONST CHAR[] TRUTH is defined in at least 10^42 places - and that doesn't even begin to address the number of places it's defined in "universe.h".
Even worse yet, different parts of the program use different #DEFINE values - so the value of TRUTH varies based on the thread ID, status, and data handled.
;-)
And you thought .DLL hell was bad...
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
|
Post #29,317
2/21/02 9:44:24 PM
2/21/02 9:46:33 PM
|
Reminds me of an old joke...
Three accountants are interviewing for a job. The prospective employer ask each one, "what's two plus two?"... Okay, so you've heard it before.
Yeah, that's right, the one who gets the job answers, "what do you want it to be?".
I have a feeling that will be the answer to your question on truth as well. I understand your rationale for asking, maybe he'll bite, but there's really nothing to be gained here. The "truth" is a goal that we all strive for, but as you well know, the truth in history is that history is written by the conquerors, the educated, the random scraps of bs papers that survive the razing of the city-state...
Sorry in advance for interferring. Us leftest ideologues can't help but spoil the fun.
You're right, the more I think about it, I'd like to know what the "truth" is myself...
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
"All I want is the truth" John Lennon
"Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Edited by screamer
Feb. 21, 2002, 09:46:33 PM EST
|
Post #29,376
2/22/02 12:00:16 PM
|
"Truth" with the big "T".
I have a feeling that will be the answer to your question on truth as well. I'm glad you're so in touch with your feelings. Or did you miss the "T" in "Truth"? Feel whatever you want to feel. We'll see what his answer is to that question. But I don't think he will answer that question. Why won't he answer it? Is it because he's afraid "The Truth" won't be able to stand on its own? Isn't it "The Truth" after all? Or are we discussing his opinions? I understand your rationale for asking, maybe he'll bite, but there's really nothing to be gained here. Sure there is. He can demonstrate how wrong I am and support his earlier statement. You remember the one? Allow me to re-quote it for you: When Leftists ideologues say there is no real truth, the truth itself becomes politicized. But remember, truth was here first. The "truth" is a goal that we all strive for, but as you well know, the truth in history is that history is written by the conquerors, the educated, the random scraps of bs papers that survive the razing of the city-state... I think you're confusing "Truth" with "stories". Many times, these "stories" are reported as "historical fact". But they are still "stories". He refered to "truth". He said the "truth" was here first. You're right, the more I think about it, I'd like to know what the "truth" is myself... Me too!
|
Post #29,369
2/22/02 11:15:30 AM
|
I don't play rigged games, so don't ask.
My position as to what is Truth, on various and sundry topics, is very much a matter of public record. Especially around these fora. But I can't seem to get a transmission through to planet Brandioch. Maybe it's being jammed by the incoherent static emanating from planet Ashton, or bounced around in the dim shades-of-greyness of the Silverlock nebula. But most likely it's the reality shield surrounding planet Brandioch.
Somehow I don't think the problem is at my end.
Truth is that which is the case. As opposed to that which is not the case. But it's no good saying that, because some people will turn around and ask what "is the case" means. Or what "is" means. As Dogbert once said, if there are no stupid questions, what sort of questions do stupid people ask?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
|
Post #29,371
2/22/02 11:29:45 AM
|
cop out
You say the truth is what you say, I agree with you sometimes disagree others, that is my truth there is no THE truth unless your heavily medicated which you have indicated you dont hold with. thanx, bill
"I'm selling a hammer," he says. "They can beat nails with it, or their dog." Richard Eaton spy software innovator
|
Post #29,373
2/22/02 11:41:58 AM
|
Cop out yerself.
That's not your truth. That's your opinion. Against my opinion. But at least I make an effort to calibrate my opinion against reality. And that's how Truth gets into it.
What part of "Truth is that which is the case" don't you understand?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
|
Post #29,379
2/22/02 12:22:42 PM
|
facts/cases arnt truth
Anti Israeli/Pro Israeli both have facts/cases/truth and merit neither is the truth what part of objective dont you understand? thanx, bill
"I'm selling a hammer," he says. "They can beat nails with it, or their dog." Richard Eaton spy software innovator
|
Post #29,401
2/22/02 1:46:02 PM
|
Well, facts sure as hell ain't falsehood.
If you don't start with facts, you're not going anywhere I'd want to go.
And judging from the results, the Israelis are far more in touch with reality than the Arabs. Truth is that which is the case, but the test of what is the case is what works. What the Israelis do works. They survive and prosper against overwhelming odds. What the Palestinians do just brings them more grief.
(And don't go claiming that Israel only survives because we meddling Americans prop it up. First off, the US has unwisely supported Arafat as well. Secondly, we propped up the Shah of Iran, and it didn't save his ass. We're not as good at propping regimes up as to make it a guarantor of survival. And if even if we were that good, it would mean that what America does works. Actually it does work, just not quite that well.)
If you have anything remotely resembling a point here, it's that both Arabs and Israelis are guilty of the fallacy of exclusion. (Certainly the Arabs are, at any rate.) But that's not a problem with facts. It's a problem with leaving facts out, and also with violating rules of inference. And if partial truth is bad, is even less truth going to be an improvement? How does that work?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
|
Post #29,414
2/22/02 2:27:55 PM
|
This just keeps getting better. :)
So, the "Truth" is the "Truth". But the "Truth" on Monday might not be the "Truth" on Friday. (from your other post). .....but the test of what is the case is what works. So, what works in one situation is the "Truth", but in another situation, there could be a different "Truth"? In other words, whatever is successful is "Truth" to you. So, when Clinton beat Bush and then was elected for a second term, Clinton had the "Truth"?
|
Post #29,374
2/22/02 11:45:12 AM
|
Thank you, God.
My position as to what is Truth, on various and sundry topics, is very much a matter of public record. So, your opinion on a subject is "The Truth" about that subject. Hmmmmm, I do believe that is a functional definition of "God". Truth is that which is the case. No argument there. And 1 + 1 = 2. I didn't ask you to define "truth". I asked what the "Truth" is, accourding to you. As opposed to that which is not the case. Again, no argument. But you still haven't told me what the "Truth" is. You've just defined what "truth" is and what "truth" is not. But it's no good saying that, because some people will turn around and ask what "is the case" means. No. Just what the "Truth" is. Phrase it however you want to. Or what "is" means. It would seem to me that this is EXACTLY what you are doing right now. You are focusing on the definitions of the words rather than answering the question. But I expected such bullshit from you. In summary, Marlowe hasn't got a clue what "The Truth" is. He has his opinions and he supports those opinions by stating that they are "The Truth". Which is no support at all. Sorry, Marlowe, you lose.
|
Post #30,459
3/2/02 10:29:22 AM
|
Marlowe is quoting:
die Welt is alles was der Fall ist.
Brandioch, it's you who's ducking and weaving. Wittgenstein's comment has a resonance in German that's hard to translate into English; Germans don't need Murphy, they have falls ist. Marlowe's version is about as good as any, and better than some, as translations go.
Capitalizing "Truth" into existentialism serves no purpose bar providing you with a strawman to sneer at. Yes, truth is sometimes different at different times, because die Welt does change as time passes; entropy, if nothing else.
As for Russian -- in point of actual fact, pravda does not mean "truth" as we use the word, to mean a point-to-point correspondence with the objective Universe. When a Russian wants to use that concept (not often) the word is instinye, as in ve istinye tak "You got that right, dude!" Pravda is more closely related to "approved", as in "the officially approved version". Your rants, and some of Ashton's, are more pravlino than anything else.
Regards, Ric
|
Post #30,490
3/2/02 7:07:05 PM
|
However the world changes,
there are ever those who claim accessibility of ~an unvarying Truth (or via lots of other symbols) - and they speak with certainty or Certainty of that accomplishment.
Such ones are - lawful prey. (Even when not overtly arrogant; certainly more fun.. when they are).
I'll ask my friend about the nuances of pravda (think you're right on that one, from previous conversations). 'Istinye' - don't know nada.
Now as to Wittgenstein - hey! a friend wrote his thesis on W. So you grok to fullness on W., do you? Recall his take on the maya ? ;-)
Ashton
Morphological Rants to Order
|
Post #29,450
2/22/02 8:12:18 PM
|
Tautologies - don't leave home without a handful, especially
when your solipsism has ID'd *YOU* as the sole earthly repository! of
The Truth
Poor baby; just can't cope? in an unCertain world? Yeah, it's tough. {sniff}
Would that you'd submit these Rilly-New Testament Revelations for a grade in Phil. 101A (or better yet, Aberrant Psych. 202B). Megalomania just somehow never quiiite comes up to Expectations, after the incense fumes drift away, and Avatar Marlowe just doesn't quite..... ring True.
Olde English Prayer, as apt today as well as... at the next Inquisition -
Dear Lord, please protect me from the wrath of Those who Know..
{shudder}
|
Post #29,339
2/22/02 4:11:39 AM
|
Actually.. JC had one of the cleverer answers to that one,
When Pilate asked, "what is truth?" JC replied, "I am truth." (we are told)
If 'The Truth' means ~ "some verbal description of All and Everything" - which is to say "Reality" (!) then inherently the Question is unanswerable: Language cannot contain this [Truth].
But it is only ever a question which is 'begged'. It is a metaphysical question: it is *The* metaphysical question. So naturally, in a species which spawns 'beliefs' and Beliefs - each person attaching an emotion called Certainty to His/Her internal collection of ideas about what Reality might be - well, then we get these interminable and utterly pointless Plays of Opposites like,
Liberal / Conservative. For one of these constructs to be something about 'Truth' (!) is akin to separating the N and S poles of a magnet and creating an isolated Pole = The Monad!.
And we haven't even introduced the popular idea that "every Truth can be Proven" (which G\ufffddel proves is a false notion). At least in math - the Only place where any actual Proof ever existed.. A meta-proof about proof. {sigh}
Finally, in present fruitless context: every 'Conservative' has his private definition. Ditto for any other of these meaningless blab words - meaningless precisely because they have infinite individually-tailored 'meanings'. Stuart Chase knew what to do with blab words; Hayakawa stole his book, lock stock and barrel and claimed he invented semantics in his plagiarized text ~ Language in Thought and Action. Chase had already said it - so simply that a child could grok it. "Blab" = a meaningless though Popular word. Useful shorthand - saves millions of words.
In brief: Language Fails where there are no universal referents as, in the case we call 'Reality'. Which is why the Play of Opposites in this world guarantees endless and irresolvable "arguments about pairs of opposites". Prediction:
Marlowe shall next explain why Conservatism is True; Liberalism is False. Because.. He's one of those Certain folks. Me? I pass.
Not every truth is better for showing its face undistinguished; and often silence is the wisest course for a man to pursue. Pindar
We only live for two moments. Let one of them be for wisdom. Voltaire
|
Post #29,375
2/22/02 11:52:02 AM
|
Nicely phrased.
"The Truth" is the domain of the divine.
For anyone to claim "The Truth" as his domain is to set himself up as a religion. (Yes you are, marlowe).
For anyone to claim "The Truth" is mis-represented by any other is to set himself up as a religion. (Yes you are, Marlowe).
|
Post #29,459
2/22/02 10:22:24 PM
|
So all this is a lie?
[link|http://english.pravda.ru/|Pravda == Truth] in Russian.
Even their [link|http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/02/22/26597.html|options are Truth].
Who would have guessed? :)
Alex
"Of course, you realize this means war." -B. Bunny
|
Post #29,469
2/22/02 11:34:35 PM
|
Revealed Truth on 'adiposity'
[link|http://funreports.com/2002/02/20/26540.html|Muricans export fat(ness)]
Doverai ni proverai, tovarishi!
|