Wait a minute

Post #290,651 by Lily 8/11/07 8:06:48 PM Reply	Wait a minute So what you're saying is if it hasnt been discovered or explained already it doesnt exist?!? Listen, imagination is more important than knowledge. Einstein said so himself. It takes you to the leading edge of thought. Speculation and wonder is what drives us to discovery. Logic only takes you so far. Matter of fact, it usually only takes you to where you've already been. Who wants to stay stuck? Imagination can take you anywhere.
Post #290,655 by rcareaga 8/11/07 9:17:04 PM 8/11/07 9:24:45 PM Reply	Leading edges and off the edge I regard with some sympathy Ashton's broadminded (occasionally perhaps promiscuous) willingness to cast his intellectual net into oceans not typically sailed—or even recognized as "wet"—by our western rational traditions. On the other hand I am disposed to regard most beliefs covered by the rubric of "New Age" in general, and "crystal healing" in particular (one of many) as so much claptrap for all practical purposes (I define healthcare as a practical purpose). I have a dear friend who is mortally ill. The oncologist is fighting an uphill battle, and believes that there is a slender chance that some recent developments in chemotherapy may purchase a few more months of stability and comfort for her. The oncologist (call her "Dr. O") has arrived at this conclusion, I assume, on the basis of reviewing results from peer-reviewed studies. I note that Dr. O does not appear to be considering a trip to Mill Valley to select from the current generation of magical healing crystals the best specimens for banishing metastatic ovarian cancer. The end may, indeed likely will be the same in this instance, although if Dr. O were to go to an exclusive regimen of crystals this evening I have no doubt that V would be gone by September. The difference is that the anti-cancer treatments in place today are presumably* administered after a rigorous course of research, testing, experimentation, analysis and review. And crystals? "Peer review" comes down to "my sister-in-law's best friend's mother." We're talking here something like the level of assertions that are routinely shot down at [link\|http://www.snopes.com/\|Snopes]. pwhysall's "how much of a cultural relativist are you at 30,000 feet" (presumably a tribute to Dick Dawkins' [link\|http://www.amazon.com/River-Out-Eden-Darwinian-Science/dp/0465069908/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-4800466-3181247?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186879662&sr=1-1\|River Out of Eden], though he may have used the line elsewhere) puts it nicely. There may be more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in Horatio's philosophy, but the record of the past couple of thousand years strongly suggests that to the extent we desire Nature to yield reliable results we must approach her systematically. Intuition has certainly led to breakthroughs times past, but when have these ever been divorced from the less glamorous substrate of the scientific method? Regarding the plastics controversy with which this thread began, I suspect that the convenience of the assorted polymers that have entered our environment (Bakelite, the first commercial plastic, is a century old this year) may ultimately be seen as poor reward for the havoc these rogue molecules have wrought on the collective and on our individual internal environments. I am, however, only an educated layman, and lack the credentials and training that permit an impartial scientist, or a bought-and-paid-for industry whore, to make a pronouncement on this issue. ramblingly, *It is certainly conceivable in this century's political environment that a cabal of particularly bloodthirsty HMO, Big Pharma and insurance executives are dictating the published clinical "results" with a mind to the next quarter's results, but this way madness lies... Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist. Edited by rcareaga Aug. 11, 2007, 09:24:45 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #290,657 by Andrew Grygus 8/11/07 9:42:17 PM Reply	'to the extent we desire Nature to yield reliable results' Actually this doesn't apply. Crystals are a tool of the healer, not of nature, just as a tarot deck is a tool of the reader and has in itself no magic. Whether a healer or a tarot reader is effective is a very individual thing, some are, most aren't, and telling one from another is pretty much impenetrable to scientific study. Tell me scientifically why Picasso was a great artist and why 10,000 others weren't. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #290,660 by rcareaga 8/11/07 9:52:57 PM Reply	WHAT??? Emphases added: Whether a healer or a tarot reader is effective is a very individual thing, some are, most aren't, and telling one from another is pretty much impenetrable to scientific study. V's right pleural cavity was filling with fluid. Trained medical personnel put a drain in it, and relieved her discomfort. Are you suggesting that V might have skipped the doctors and gone to a tarot reader to determine her course of treatment from that point? This seems inconsistent with the impression I had formed of you. bewilderedly, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #290,664 by Andrew Grygus 8/11/07 10:08:36 PM Reply	You go to whoever's appropriate to your problem. Clearly advanced cancer isn't a problem appropriate to a tarot reader though some emotional issues very well might be - depends on the reader. Your friend obviously has a problem appropriate, at least in large part, to invasive surgery and similar methods. Whether a good healer (with crystals or other tools of choice) might be an adjunct to this treatment is the open question - possibly for comfort but almost certainly not for cure at this stage. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #290,666 by rcareaga 8/11/07 10:20:24 PM Reply	OK, sure Clogged toilet, I consult plumber. Dodgy wiring, I consult electrician. Cancer, I hie me to the oncologist. —tell me again, for what do I consult the palmist, the tarot-card reader, the Wiccan crystal goddess, the phrenologist? And how do I quantify the likely expertise of these worthies as against the, ah, mature technologies represented by the first three enumerated professions? mystified, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #290,670 by Andrew Grygus 8/11/07 11:16:09 PM Reply	Well, say you had some emotional issues or. . . . . your life seemed without direction. Would you go to a psychiatrist and expect "scientifically verified" results? From the results I've seen you won't do any worse with your local witch doctor, and it'll cost you a hell of a lot less - and if s/he's good it just might help. For a chronic health issue where the doctors simply say "there's nothing wrong with you" or go wandering off on some currently popular but inappropriate tangent as they often do, a healer is probably a better choice - at the least less damage will be done. Here again, effectiveness is an entirely personal thing, a relationship between the practitioner and the client. It's up to the client to judge if that relationship is effective. Practitioners that try to be "scientific" are generally ineffective. Back around 1970, Paula, a former girlfriend, was taking singing lessons from a well known teacher, a Dr. Long, who was also president of the American Astrological Society. The AAS was trying to get a law passed in California to certify and license astrologers. Certification was, of course, to be according to the "scientific" astrological principles of the AAS. Paula was sent out on spying missions to various astrologers to have readings done and report back as to their compliance or non-compliance. She told me that what really struck her was that the really good ones paid no heed to "scientific" principles at all, but used the tools in their own personal way, and each in a different way. Those that followed the formal rules were all hacks. Phrenology is a pseudo-science and unlikely to be effective in any way - but the Wiccan crystal goddess might be effective, and at least will be a lot more fun, and that could help right there. A funny: - Years ago I was at a party talking to a schoolteacher. She told me that the year before she'd been at some sort of teacher's retreat. A card reader had set up camp there and did readings between scheduled events. She told me that several teachers had readings done and were urging her to have one, "It's fun!". She told them it was senseless and irrational and she wouldn't do it. Finally succumbing to peer pressure she sat down for a reading. The guy spread the cards and looked at them for a bit, then looked her in the eye and said, "First of all, you've got to stop messing around with the guys at work". She told me, "That hit so hard I didn't hear another word he said". [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #290,699 by Ashton 8/12/07 7:49:16 AM Reply	As to Astrologers, Homeo - swan song, for here (new thread) Created as new thread #290698 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=290698\|As to Astrologers, Homeo - swan song, for here]
Post #290,712 by Lily 8/12/07 12:41:37 PM Reply	Western medicine. (new thread) Created as new thread #290711 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=290711\|Western medicine.]
Post #290,717 by Lily 8/12/07 1:10:54 PM Reply	Blood thirsty HMOs (new thread) Created as new thread #290716 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=290716\|Blood thirsty HMOs]
Post #290,680 by pwhysall 8/12/07 12:47:02 AM Reply	Re: Wait a minute So what you're saying is if it hasnt been discovered or explained already it doesnt exist?!? No. Listen, imagination is more important than knowledge. Einstein said so himself. It takes you to the leading edge of thought. Speculation and wonder is what drives us to discovery. Indeed. But Einstein worked out a lot of really hard and detailed mathematics to make his stuff go. The actual business of discovery involves a lot of hard work and rigorous, unglamorous science. Logic only takes you so far. Matter of fact, it usually only takes you to where you've already been. Actually, logic is what gave us all the scientific advances of the 20th century. Your moral assessment of the contribution of The Internet and The Telly to society aside, they were invented and implemented by scientists. Logic put a man on the moon, not someone examining their chakras and checking that their feng shite was in alignment. Who wants to stay stuck? Imagination can take you anywhere. So can LSD. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #290,683 by Andrew Grygus 8/12/07 12:51:46 AM Reply	But the impetus behind all these things was illogical. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #290,684 by pwhysall 8/12/07 1:02:16 AM Reply	So what? I don't particularly care why Crick and Watson did what they did - it could have been pride, a feeling of duty, idle curiosity or even an entry requirement of the local Badger Baiting and Bear Tossing Society. Similarly, the frame of mind of Newton as he put the finishing touches to Principia Mathematica isn't at all relevant to its content. He may well have considered himself to be a large, unfeathered chicken at the time. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #290,685 by Andrew Grygus 8/12/07 1:07:28 AM Reply	So what? With just logic you get nowhere. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #290,687 by pwhysall 8/12/07 1:39:27 AM Reply	Demonstrably wrong. points at Voyager In terms of "getting somewhere", it's done pretty well... Logically designed and scientifically tested and built. And guess what? It worked. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #290,688 by Andrew Grygus 8/12/07 2:14:42 AM Reply	You're pointing to the how - not the why. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #290,691 by pwhysall 8/12/07 2:59:39 AM Reply	Indeed I am. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #290,692 by Andrew Grygus 8/12/07 3:27:10 AM Reply	Hows can be exicuted with complete logic . . . . . but without a why there will not be a how at all. Whys are rather seldom based on logic, and the why behind Voyager certainly isn't. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #290,693 by pwhysall 8/12/07 3:28:14 AM Reply	I never argued otherwise. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #290,694 by Andrew Grygus 8/12/07 4:06:04 AM Reply	And carefully kept your argument shallow . . . . . to avoid running into the inevitable contradiction. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #290,695 by pwhysall 8/12/07 4:34:27 AM Reply	What contradiction? Or are you about to unveil some revelation that will show us all that crystal healing et al isn't a giant pile of bollocks? Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #290,713 by Lily 8/12/07 12:51:04 PM 8/12/07 3:27:05 PM Reply	You know- Most of my academic career involved studying the sciences- physics, chemistry, and just about every branch of biology out there. I GET science. I LOVE science. Each and every scientific advancement started with someone wondering "What if?" That is the power of imagination. So stop being trying to twist what I'm saying to fit your argument. Edited by Lily Aug. 12, 2007, 03:27:05 PM EDT Expand All History

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