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New I have a response prepared
Related to crystal healing, which is my latest area of investigation in my quest to more fully understand the energy of our universe...

*But*... I dont think you can handle the pleasure I would give you as you gleefully rip me a new one, so I will keep my mouth shut.

Incidentally, I am surrounded by a pile of books right now:

Stephen Hawking, "The Universe in a Nutshell"
Fritjof Capra, " The Tao of Physics"
Amit Goswami, "The Self Aware Universe"
Esther and Jerry Hicks, "The Amazing Power of Deliberate Intent"

And various books about the piezo and pyro electric effects of crystals.

Go ahead, mock away.


New I can save you time!
Crystal healing doesn't do anything other than cost you money. There may be placebo effect benefits,

There you go, job done.

Unless, of course, you're going to discover things so wonderful that you won't be able to move for Nobel prizes.

Critical thinking, folks. It's not just for godless atheists!

(BTW, I've got a copy of The Universe In A Nutshell. Must have missed the chapter on woo-woo alternative medicine...)


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
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New Oohh___I Loves didactic Certainty..
It causes 2nd order perturbations in the theta rhythm - Don't Stop!

(Just don't fuck with the Gravitional Constant, y'hear?)

New he is a brit who drives a beemer
how more didactic Certainty can you get? He also believes one must take classes in evasive driving or it cant be done. rigid as my morning woody that boy :-)
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New What's your point?
Other than the usual boxley-shit-fling?


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
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New Whatever.
How much of a cultural relativist are you at 30,000 feet?

Do you believe in crystal healing? While you're at it, do you believe in iridology?

This "oh you're so certain, you might be wrong, blah blah" drum you bang is tedious, Ash.

There's healthy scepticism, and there's having your mind so open that your brain falls out.

Giving credence to this sort of woo-woo bullshit falls into the latter category.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
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[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
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Expand Edited by pwhysall Aug. 11, 2007, 10:25:53 AM EDT
New Wait a minute
So what you're saying is if it hasnt been discovered or explained already it doesnt exist?!?

Listen, imagination is more important than knowledge. Einstein said so himself. It takes you to the leading edge of thought. Speculation and wonder is what drives us to discovery.

Logic only takes you so far. Matter of fact, it usually only takes you to where you've already been. Who wants to stay stuck? Imagination can take you anywhere.
New Leading edges and off the edge
I regard with some sympathy Ashton's broadminded (occasionally perhaps promiscuous) willingness to cast his intellectual net into oceans not typically sailed—or even recognized as "wet"—by our western rational traditions. On the other hand I am disposed to regard most beliefs covered by the rubric of "New Age" in general, and "crystal healing" in particular (one of many) as so much claptrap for all practical purposes (I define healthcare as a practical purpose). I have a dear friend who is mortally ill. The oncologist is fighting an uphill battle, and believes that there is a slender chance that some recent developments in chemotherapy may purchase a few more months of stability and comfort for her. The oncologist (call her "Dr. O") has arrived at this conclusion, I assume, on the basis of reviewing results from peer-reviewed studies. I note that Dr. O does not appear to be considering a trip to Mill Valley to select from the current generation of magical healing crystals the best specimens for banishing metastatic ovarian cancer.

The end may, indeed likely will be the same in this instance, although if Dr. O were to go to an exclusive regimen of crystals this evening I have no doubt that V would be gone by September. The difference is that the anti-cancer treatments in place today are presumably* administered after a rigorous course of research, testing, experimentation, analysis and review. And crystals? "Peer review" comes down to "my sister-in-law's best friend's mother." We're talking here something like the level of assertions that are routinely shot down at [link|http://www.snopes.com/|Snopes].

pwhysall's "how much of a cultural relativist are you at 30,000 feet" (presumably a tribute to Dick Dawkins' [link|http://www.amazon.com/River-Out-Eden-Darwinian-Science/dp/0465069908/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-4800466-3181247?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186879662&sr=1-1|River Out of Eden], though he may have used the line elsewhere) puts it nicely. There may be more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in Horatio's philosophy, but the record of the past couple of thousand years strongly suggests that to the extent we desire Nature to yield reliable results we must approach her systematically. Intuition has certainly led to breakthroughs times past, but when have these ever been divorced from the less glamorous substrate of the scientific method?

Regarding the plastics controversy with which this thread began, I suspect that the convenience of the assorted polymers that have entered our environment (Bakelite, the first commercial plastic, is a century old this year) may ultimately be seen as poor reward for the havoc these rogue molecules have wrought on the collective and on our individual internal environments. I am, however, only an educated layman, and lack the credentials and training that permit an impartial scientist, or a bought-and-paid-for industry whore, to make a pronouncement on this issue.

ramblingly,

*It is certainly conceivable in this century's political environment that a cabal of particularly bloodthirsty HMO, Big Pharma and insurance executives are dictating the published clinical "results" with a mind to the next quarter's results, but this way madness lies...
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Expand Edited by rcareaga Aug. 11, 2007, 09:24:45 PM EDT
New 'to the extent we desire Nature to yield reliable results'
Actually this doesn't apply. Crystals are a tool of the healer, not of nature, just as a tarot deck is a tool of the reader and has in itself no magic.

Whether a healer or a tarot reader is effective is a very individual thing, some are, most aren't, and telling one from another is pretty much impenetrable to scientific study. Tell me scientifically why Picasso was a great artist and why 10,000 others weren't.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New WHAT???
Emphases added:
Whether a healer or a tarot reader is effective is a very individual thing, some are, most aren't, and telling one from another is pretty much impenetrable to scientific study.
V's right pleural cavity was filling with fluid. Trained medical personnel put a drain in it, and relieved her discomfort. Are you suggesting that V might have skipped the doctors and gone to a tarot reader to determine her course of treatment from that point?

This seems inconsistent with the impression I had formed of you.

bewilderedly,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New You go to whoever's appropriate to your problem.
Clearly advanced cancer isn't a problem appropriate to a tarot reader though some emotional issues very well might be - depends on the reader.

Your friend obviously has a problem appropriate, at least in large part, to invasive surgery and similar methods.

Whether a good healer (with crystals or other tools of choice) might be an adjunct to this treatment is the open question - possibly for comfort but almost certainly not for cure at this stage.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New OK, sure
Clogged toilet, I consult plumber.

Dodgy wiring, I consult electrician.

Cancer, I hie me to the oncologist.



—tell me again, for what do I consult the palmist, the tarot-card reader, the Wiccan crystal goddess, the phrenologist? And how do I quantify the likely expertise of these worthies as against the, ah, mature technologies represented by the first three enumerated professions?

mystified,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New Well, say you had some emotional issues or. . .
. . your life seemed without direction. Would you go to a psychiatrist and expect "scientifically verified" results? From the results I've seen you won't do any worse with your local witch doctor, and it'll cost you a hell of a lot less - and if s/he's good it just might help.

For a chronic health issue where the doctors simply say "there's nothing wrong with you" or go wandering off on some currently popular but inappropriate tangent as they often do, a healer is probably a better choice - at the least less damage will be done.

Here again, effectiveness is an entirely personal thing, a relationship between the practitioner and the client. It's up to the client to judge if that relationship is effective.

Practitioners that try to be "scientific" are generally ineffective. Back around 1970, Paula, a former girlfriend, was taking singing lessons from a well known teacher, a Dr. Long, who was also president of the American Astrological Society.

The AAS was trying to get a law passed in California to certify and license astrologers. Certification was, of course, to be according to the "scientific" astrological principles of the AAS.

Paula was sent out on spying missions to various astrologers to have readings done and report back as to their compliance or non-compliance. She told me that what really struck her was that the really good ones paid no heed to "scientific" principles at all, but used the tools in their own personal way, and each in a different way. Those that followed the formal rules were all hacks.

Phrenology is a pseudo-science and unlikely to be effective in any way - but the Wiccan crystal goddess might be effective, and at least will be a lot more fun, and that could help right there.

A funny: - Years ago I was at a party talking to a schoolteacher. She told me that the year before she'd been at some sort of teacher's retreat. A card reader had set up camp there and did readings between scheduled events.

She told me that several teachers had readings done and were urging her to have one, "It's fun!". She told them it was senseless and irrational and she wouldn't do it.

Finally succumbing to peer pressure she sat down for a reading. The guy spread the cards and looked at them for a bit, then looked her in the eye and said, "First of all, you've got to stop messing around with the guys at work".

She told me, "That hit so hard I didn't hear another word he said".
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New As to Astrologers, Homeo - swan song, for here (new thread)
Created as new thread #290698 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=290698|As to Astrologers, Homeo - swan song, for here]

New Western medicine. (new thread)
Created as new thread #290711 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=290711|Western medicine.]
New Blood thirsty HMOs (new thread)
Created as new thread #290716 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=290716|Blood thirsty HMOs]
New Re: Wait a minute
So what you're saying is if it hasnt been discovered or explained already it doesnt exist?!?

No.
Listen, imagination is more important than knowledge. Einstein said so himself. It takes you to the leading edge of thought. Speculation and wonder is what drives us to discovery.

Indeed. But Einstein worked out a lot of really hard and detailed mathematics to make his stuff go. The actual business of discovery involves a lot of hard work and rigorous, unglamorous science.
Logic only takes you so far. Matter of fact, it usually only takes you to where you've already been.

Actually, logic is what gave us all the scientific advances of the 20th century. Your moral assessment of the contribution of The Internet and The Telly to society aside, they were invented and implemented by scientists. Logic put a man on the moon, not someone examining their chakras and checking that their feng shite was in alignment.
Who wants to stay stuck? Imagination can take you anywhere.

So can LSD.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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New But the impetus behind all these things was illogical.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New So what?
I don't particularly care why Crick and Watson did what they did - it could have been pride, a feeling of duty, idle curiosity or even an entry requirement of the local Badger Baiting and Bear Tossing Society.

Similarly, the frame of mind of Newton as he put the finishing touches to Principia Mathematica isn't at all relevant to its content. He may well have considered himself to be a large, unfeathered chicken at the time.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
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New So what? With just logic you get nowhere.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Demonstrably wrong.
*points at Voyager*

In terms of "getting somewhere", it's done pretty well...

Logically designed and scientifically tested and built. And guess what? It worked.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
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New You're pointing to the how - not the why.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Indeed I am.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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New Hows can be exicuted with complete logic . . .
. . but without a why there will not be a how at all. Whys are rather seldom based on logic, and the why behind Voyager certainly isn't.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New I never argued otherwise.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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New And carefully kept your argument shallow . . .
. . to avoid running into the inevitable contradiction.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New What contradiction?
Or are you about to unveil some revelation that will show us all that crystal healing et al isn't a giant pile of bollocks?



Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
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New You know-
Most of my academic career involved studying the sciences- physics, chemistry, and just about every branch of biology out there. I GET science. I LOVE science.

Each and every scientific advancement started with someone wondering "What if?"

That is the power of imagination.

So stop being trying to twist what I'm saying to fit your argument.
Expand Edited by Lily Aug. 12, 2007, 03:27:05 PM EDT
New Crystals aren't mysterous.
A crystal is just a solid with a regular, simply describable, arrangement of atoms. Many gemstones are crystals, but so is the silicon chip inside your computer, the clear "glass" on some watch faces (synthetic sapphire == crystalline aluminum oxide), and the quartz oscillator in watches is a small piece of quartz crystal (quartz == crystalline silicon dioxide). Crystals are simpler to understand than other materials because they're regular (e.g. compare a detailed physical description of a salt crystal with a sample of concrete).

And various books about the piezo and pyro electric effects of crystals.


A piezoelectric crystal is one that has the property that a change in dimension of the crystal results in a build-up of a voltage on the crystal. It works in reverse as well - applying a voltage to it will change the dimensions. The effect is due to changes in chemical bond lengths in the material as a result of stress or electric field. There are also piezoelectric materials that aren't crystalline. [link|http://thorlabs.com/Navigation.cfm?Guide_ID=82&Visual_ID=1906&GoogleAdWords=1&camp=USA&Keyword=Piezoelectric%20Actuator|Piezo Actuators] work on this principle. A voltage applied causes a change in dimensions and thus movement.

Pyroelectric materials are those that have a charge build-up as a result of a temperature difference across it. It's also related to changes in bond lengths in the material. In general, pyroelectric materials are also piezoelectric.

You probably have some of these piezoelectric and pyroelectric crystals in your home right now. Quartz is piezoelectric. Also, do you have a white LED flashlight? White LEDs (and blue LEDs and many other colors) are made from gallium nitride (GaN) crystals. GaN is pyroelelectric and piezoelectric.

One of the reasons why [link|http://skepdic.com/crystals.html|it's hard for skeptics to believe that crystals can have any effect] approaching those claimed by advocates is that the electric field is so small outside the crystalline material. Any crystal field would be swamped by other fields in the environment (probably including natural electric fields in our bodies).

Enjoy your reading, but be skeptical! :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Crystals have their secrets too.
I read that during WWII, due to shortage of quartz, fluorite was used for oscillator control crystals. Sometime after the war a lab, I think in Germany, wasn't able to get these crystals to work. Samples were sent from lab to lab and soon nobody could get fluorite to work any more.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Link?
Sounds like utter bollocks to me, but I like a good ghost story.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
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New Re: Link?
I read that in a science article probably about 1964. Hardly anything from that era is on the Internet yet (at least nothing I've ever tried to find).
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New A related history is here.
Like you, I find it frustrating that so much pre-1990s information isn't at our fingertips. :-)

Just to add a little more to the story:

[link|http://www.ieee-uffc.org/fc_history/bottom.html|A HISTORY OF THE QUARTZ CRYSTAL INDUSTRY IN THE USA], from 1981. It mentions shortages of natural quartz, and German efforts in artificial quartz. It's a good article, but doesn't mention efforts in other materials in any detail. The author closes with the hope that someone will fill in the details in areas he touches on.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Tao of Physics?
The Tao of Physics, by Fritjof Capra? That doesn't mention about crystal healing at all. Rather, it explains quantum theory.

Or are you merely stating that you have a copy? If so, I'll state I have a copy of the The Selfish Gene, by Richard Dawkins, as well. That's an insightful book too.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New Re: Tao of Physics?
You're right. It is about quantum physics. And very interesting, too.

DAWKINS!! That is the book I was looking for and I couldnt remember the author's name.

Back to the library for me.

Thanks.
     Two words: Bad plastic - (Ashton) - (45)
         That was a hell of a leap - (crazy) - (44)
             I noticed that too. - (Andrew Grygus) - (43)
                 If an inverse relationship is already established - - (Ashton) - (42)
                     Why should it? Would you expect it to mention Voodoo? - (CRConrad) - (41)
                         Here, have some red meat - - (Ashton) - (40)
                             Recommended Reading - (pwhysall) - (39)
                                 why are you forced to vaccinate yer kids then? - (boxley) - (3)
                                     Completely different, Bill. - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                         gwan ya think? By the by chicken blood by a voodoo priestess - (boxley) - (1)
                                             Your scepticism is refreshing - (pwhysall)
                                 I have a response prepared - (Lily) - (34)
                                     I can save you time! - (pwhysall) - (26)
                                         Oohh___I Loves didactic Certainty.. - (Ashton) - (25)
                                             he is a brit who drives a beemer - (boxley) - (1)
                                                 What's your point? - (pwhysall)
                                             Whatever. - (pwhysall) - (22)
                                                 Wait a minute - (Lily) - (21)
                                                     Leading edges and off the edge - (rcareaga) - (8)
                                                         'to the extent we desire Nature to yield reliable results' - (Andrew Grygus) - (5)
                                                             WHAT??? - (rcareaga) - (4)
                                                                 You go to whoever's appropriate to your problem. - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
                                                                     OK, sure - (rcareaga) - (2)
                                                                         Well, say you had some emotional issues or. . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                                                             As to Astrologers, Homeo - swan song, for here (new thread) - (Ashton)
                                                         Western medicine. (new thread) - (Lily)
                                                         Blood thirsty HMOs (new thread) - (Lily)
                                                     Re: Wait a minute - (pwhysall) - (11)
                                                         But the impetus behind all these things was illogical. -NT - (Andrew Grygus) - (9)
                                                             So what? - (pwhysall) - (8)
                                                                 So what? With just logic you get nowhere. -NT - (Andrew Grygus) - (7)
                                                                     Demonstrably wrong. - (pwhysall) - (6)
                                                                         You're pointing to the how - not the why. -NT - (Andrew Grygus) - (5)
                                                                             Indeed I am. -NT - (pwhysall) - (4)
                                                                                 Hows can be exicuted with complete logic . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
                                                                                     I never argued otherwise. -NT - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                                                         And carefully kept your argument shallow . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                                                                             What contradiction? - (pwhysall)
                                                         You know- - (Lily)
                                     Crystals aren't mysterous. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                         Crystals have their secrets too. - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
                                             Link? - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                 Re: Link? - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                                     A related history is here. - (Another Scott)
                                     Tao of Physics? - (warmachine) - (1)
                                         Re: Tao of Physics? - (Lily)

Nobody leaves an Asian restaurant with less than eight pounds of to-go boxes.
143 ms