Berry Bonds is the Bush of Baseball

Post #290,480 by tablizer 8/8/07 2:10:31 AM Reply	Berry Bonds is the Bush of Baseball I take that back: Unlike Bonds, W is not even successful when cheating. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #290,488 by boxley 8/8/07 8:17:00 AM Reply	does tiger woods cheat? he uses titanium clubs, so barry just put a little extra into his club, as I would remind some folks it wasnt against the rules at the time. thanx, bill Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #290,494 by mmoffitt 8/8/07 9:22:59 AM Reply	Yes. Joe Dey banned non-steel when he saw Gene Littler use a graphite shaft and hit the ball further than he ever had. Then golf went the normal route in Murica: corporate subservience. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #290,498 by bepatient 8/8/07 12:25:01 PM Reply	You know not of what you speak. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #290,786 by mmoffitt 8/13/07 2:16:37 PM Reply	Wrong, Bluto. When "Game Improvement" clubs were allowed to be used by "Professional" golfers, guys who couldn't get their stinking card suddenly started winning tournaments (Paul Azinger ring any bells?). Not that Tigger is alone in this regard. They all cheat. The game I played in high school, college and (briefly) as a pro in Pro-Ams when I was first assistant at a country club in NC, has forever been trashed. Forged blades and steel shafts required craftsmen, are harder to play with, etc. "Game Improvement" cast clubs are easier to hit and cost less to produce. Corporate Murica wins again. Here's how much the game has changed since 1980. I was first assistant and we got a new assistant pro. He comes in with a Ping staff bag. The head pro runs out of the shop, grabs his bag and hides in the club room. "What the hell is the matter with you?" he asked the new assistant, "You can't let a member see that you play with those things. They'll know you're a hack." First order of business was to have him pick a pro line set: Hogan, Hagen, Wilson, McGregor and the brand new Titleist. All forged blades of course, the kind that only real pros can hit. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #290,789 by bepatient 8/13/07 3:11:18 PM Reply	Oh, I don't think so. Have you looked in the bags of these guys? They aren't hitting cavity backed hacker clubs...they're hitting forged irons...just like the "old days". No graphite on those irons either. Now there may be some guys out there hitting hybrids (the latest thing)...but Tiger isn't one of them. He has graphite on the woods (which wasn't unknown in 1980 but didn't pick up till the middle of the decade). The big change in the ball...flys further, less dispersion etc...makes misses better. But the REAL difference is fitness. When the money got good...REAL athletes started playing. Paul Goydos, not a great golfer had a choice of linebacker, infielder or golf. Picked golf for longevity of career. Pre-Tiger...golfers were puffy...now they all have personal trainers. My opinion...you may disagree all you like...is that given the EXACT SAME EQUIPMENT, Tiger, Jack, Arnie, Ben and Bobby J would all be able to play the same game...and from a purity standpoint I'd give the talent edge, slightly, to Ben...with Tiger 2, Jack 3, Bobby 4 and Arnie 5. Then you get into the slammin sammy, gary p, gene s crowd. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #290,907 by mmoffitt 8/15/07 8:49:20 AM 8/15/07 8:52:03 AM Reply	Fitness my @ss. Real life example. I left my assistant pro job in 1981. I was living in NC back then and played from time to time. My game wasn't what it was when I did nothing but play, but it was still pretty good. I went to visit my folks in California (where I grew up) in 1988. My dad and some of his pals whom I'd played with growing up took me to several golf courses I hadn't played in a while. I noticed that these guys were all of a sudden hitting the ball off the tee within a dozen yards or so of me. I thought, "Man, I've really lost some distance. I used to be 30 yards or more ahead of these guys." Then we played a course I knew very well. First hole was a dogleg left par 5 with a bunker right in the corner. I used to cut that corner and my dad's pals couldn't reach the bunker on their best day in the mid 1970's. But guess what? With their new shafts, "metal" woods, etc. they all carried that bunker. Think they were all "more fit" in 1988 than they were in 1974? My bag's still got the Tommy Armour 653 persimmon driver and 2 wood in it that I had in 1980. I've got a custom made Wilson Staff 1 iron from 1980, a custom ground Hagen sw and 2 - PW 1966 Wilson Dynapower irons. ANY pro of today that played with that equipment would automatically add 8 shots to his round. When Nicklaus drove number 18 at St. Andrews it was HUGE news. A few years ago I saw that little fart Corey Pavin drive that green. Corey-frickin'-Pavin. He couldn't hit it out of his shadow when he was in college, but today he can drive 18 at the Royal and Ancient. And then, when they have to play a course that takes into account their illegal equipment (like the Ryder Cup at Charleston, SC a few years back) they all whine to the point where they get the sponsors to allow them to play from the up tees. Fitness my arse. It's the equipment, man. Ti/Graphite shafts and "metal" woods with ENORMOUS sweet spots. No, of course, you're right, that doesn't have anything to do with it. Tigger has more talent than Bobby Jones? </me falls over>. Edit: sp bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac. Edited by mmoffitt Aug. 15, 2007, 08:52:03 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #290,914 by bepatient 8/15/07 12:06:45 PM Reply	I'll give you... drivers and the ball as tech advances that have shortened courses. You can look at club selections around Augusta to know that...but you are selling short the talent level of todays golfer by living in your fondly remembered past. Irons are being built "stronger" per the guys at Callaway (just in the factory a couple months ago)...with loft being about 2 to 3 degrees lower on clubs built today...essentially making your old blade 6 the equivalent of a current blade 7. And courses are being modified to compensate. Jack never played Augusta as a 7450 yard layout. You might as well throw in course condition as another "cheat" for the new guys...since greens can be mowed shorter and run truer today than they did in days of old. And why don't we go back to feather balls and hickory shafts. No technology allowed. (ok, yes, I'm being a smartass) But if you just stop and look at the basics, plane, position, clubhead speed, creativity in shotmaking...my top 5 will be pretty much the same (ok...some may give more reverence to sneed..but he was "not a very nice man" it the times that I met him)...and Tiger >is< that good. maybe bobby is ahead of tiger...maybe not. Jack (arguably the best player ever) is on public record saying that tiger plays a game with which he is "completely unfamiliar". Also on record saying There isn't a flaw in his golf or his makeup. He will win more majors than Arnold Palmer and me combined. Somebody is going to dust my records. It might as well be Tiger, because he's such a great kid. and He has the finest, fundamentally sound golf swing I've ever seen. Think he might know something about it too? Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #290,981 by mmoffitt 8/16/07 12:17:23 PM Reply	I'll give you... that I am extremely biased against Tigger. During an interview when he was low amateur at the Master's, right before he was to start school at Stanford, when asked if he would skip college and go pro he said (paraphrased), "No. Golf is a game. It will be there when I finish college. An education is more important and will last a lifetime." I was his biggest fan when he said that. I thought, "That is exactly the message underclass black kids need to hear. This guy is gonna be great. He's got his head screwed on right and will be the "Mr. Robinson" of golf." I was wrong. Terribly wrong. Took him < 1 semester to drop out (flunk out?) and he became what some of my uncooth family members in the south call, "Just another n****r with a ball." Yeah, he's got a ton of money. More than any human being needs, but he could have been so much more. He could have been a role model. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #290,982 by bepatient 8/16/07 12:42:00 PM Reply	He went for 2 years Could have graduated, certainly. Now it depends on what you attend college for, doesn't it. Most go to enhance their career possibilities. I don't think that was ever a question for Tiger. The fact that he went at all is somewhat surprising. As for role model...it would be hard to fault him there. "Could have been?" Come on now. He is the picture of work hard, practice practice practice etc that you want a role model to be. Compare him to any recent basketball stars (Iverson, Bryant, James) or football players (Vick, Pac-Man) or baseball players (bonds) and tell me he isn't light years better as a role model than any of them. Your uncouth southern family members are simply racists. The Foundation he formed 10 years ago has pumped millions of dollars into urban programs, grants and scholarships for kids on the basic principals listed above. Set your goal (his was to be the best golfer in the world), work at it tirelessly and achieve it. Its amazing to me that this guy, who speaks about the importance of family, hard work and perseverance in nearly EVERY interview ends up with such a bad reputation. You're not the only one I've heard this from, I just find it surprising. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #290,995 by mmoffitt 8/16/07 3:54:49 PM Reply	2 years != enrolled Fall 95 and exited Aug 96 Earl tells Sports Illustrated that Tiger won't turn pro and will finish his four years at Stanford. Tiger concurs: "I would rather spend four years here at Stanford and improve myself." [link\|http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/golf/pga/features/tiger/timeline2/\|http://sportsillustr.../tiger/timeline2/] Opportunity missed. Integrity: Check. Means what he says. Oh yeah, and was suspended by the Stanford golf team for a rules violation. He is just another NBA player (which is what some of my southern family meant, in their own rather colorful way). The only difference is the particular ball game he is playing. And I'll grant you he's a role model for black kids: "Hey, you want out of da hood? Pick up a ball, man. Shoot, you can maybe even git yosef a white wife." And that's my problem with him. In that regard, his "message" is no different from any of the NBA thugs we already have far too many of. And having all those kids look up to people like NBA players and yes, Tigger, is not in their best interest. If he had kept his word, finished his education, I'd be in his gallery. But he didn't. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #290,997 by bepatient 8/16/07 4:26:15 PM Reply	Read much? Fall >94< through summer 96. 2 years. And you really need to lay off the sauce...do you know what the NCAA was doing to him for his amateur status? They made him pay Arnold Palmer back for buying the kid lunch or they were gonna disqualify him. He wrote 8 paragraphs about his experiences at a golf tournament and they suspended him for "promoting the publications". They didn't pay him anything...but the rules committee had to "take a stand". Bullshit is what it was. I can tell we'll get nowhere here. You have prejudged him and nothing he says or does will change your mind. His message to kids is NOT pick up a ball...it is set goals and work hard. Compare that to Iverson's "Practice???? We're talkin about practice???" routine. Telling me thats the same thing? Pu-frickin-leeze. And so much for breaking down the race barrier...your post is a bit too telling. I don't begrudge him anything. His wife Elin is a great catch...his daughter is lucky to have a father in sports that has half an idea of what family values are (I bet he knows who all his kids are and won't be writing a book telling us about the thousands of women he had sex with, probably won't be accused of rape and probably won't have to go home and tell his wife he contracted aids from some groupie...won't get shot outside a denver bar and won't shoot the limo driver after beating and killing his dogs) ...and I'll be happy to talk to my grandkids about golf and watching the best player in at least 2 generations and possibly ever play the game he loves week in and week out. You, on the other hand, can watch reruns of the Shell World Series of Golf and remember the good old days. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #291,027 by mmoffitt 8/17/07 10:11:53 AM Reply	"Set goals and work hard?" Like finish school? I'm confident Iverson's defenders could match your rationalizations. Your a sports fan. That's great. Tigger, apparently, had the ability to be much more than YAN black athlete. He chose not to. But, you're right. We'll get nowhere. Arguing about this with you is like arguing with a fundamentalist Xian about the earth being older than 5,000 years. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #291,029 by Another Scott 8/17/07 10:52:05 AM Reply	He can always go back to college. E.g. [link\|http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/03/nmay103.xml\|Brian May]. By all accounts I've seen, he's a model athlete. His foundation seems to do a [link\|http://www.sportsphilanthropyproject.com/resources/details.php?id=426\|reasonably good job] as well, especially compared to other athlete foundations. The latest TWF rating at Charity Navigator is [link\|http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/search.summary/orgid/8100.htm\|here]. Whether the talent or training or the equipment makes more of an impact these days compared to the past, I can't say. But I think you're being a little hard on Woods. Cheers, Scott.
Post #291,038 by mmoffitt 8/17/07 1:43:17 PM Reply	Maybe I am too harsh on him. But that's only because of my great disappointment in him. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #291,031 by bepatient 8/17/07 11:02:45 AM Reply	You didn't answer the fundamental question. Why do people go to college? I'll answer for you... To establish a career path and give themselves better opportunities. Did Tiger need to do this? Simply, No. So we'll compare him to LeBron James. Did he go to college for even one day? How about Mr Bryant the accused rapist. Did he? Iverson went to school, sure...and him and the "posse" broke chairs over some heads in a bowling alley while he was there. If you can't recognize that Tiger is different than this at every fundamental point, if you can't recognize that he has fundamentally changed the racial balance of a traditional "white" sport, then who is it that is acting as the "fundamentalist" here. Problem is your "fundamental" point is that Tiger is "just another N with a ball"...and you try and paint >me< as the one with an attitude problem. Michael Vick went to college all 4 years. Look what good it did him. But Tiger is less to you than Mike Vick because he only went to Stanford for 2 years. What a quitter he is. Scary. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #291,043 by mmoffitt 8/17/07 1:59:50 PM Reply	You can't answer for me. Why do people go to college? I'll answer for you... To establish a career path and give themselves better opportunities. Maybe that's why you went. And many do go for that reason. But that's merely Vocational Education. And that is not why anyone should go to college. They should go, surprisingly, for the reason Tigger once said he was going: to improve themselves. Point == Obviously missed. Tigger could have been the one to send this message to children of all colors: Education is more important than a game no matter how much money you can make. He chose not to send that message despite the fact that it would have cost him nothing. In that regard, he is no different from the other athletes you listed in your post. And it is more a pity because for all I know he had the intellect to be an honest-to-$DEITY student at Stanford. The path out of the ghetto surely lies through athletics for some. But not the majority. And where are the minority academics that kids can look to? You know who I think black kids in inner cities should look to? (I'll just post his initials) VJ. He was in law school at IU when my dad was in grad school there. VJ and his family lived above us in the married dorms. He remains a father image to me to this day (and, btw, agrees with me on this point). He is Black and he graduated from IU's Law School the year before the Voting Rights Act passed. That is vastly more impressive than anything Tigger or any athlete will ever do. And it makes a hell of a lot more sense for black kids to look to VJ and people like Ron McNair (look him up - I bet you never heard of him either) as role models than athletes. Tigger could have been one of those guys, he chose not to. That is my point. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #291,048 by bepatient 8/17/07 2:23:45 PM Reply	I know the names of the Challenger astronauts. And I won't debate that there are better role models than athletes...but we don't get the choice of who gets the press. But to put him in the same category as those thugs is just wrong. Its insulting to everyone's intelligence, not just your own...and based on these posts seems a heck of alot more racist that I know you to be. And I bet if you ask those role models in your post, they would tell you the exact same thing that I am...the world could use alot more guys like Tiger to act as role models..and alot less of the general caliber of athlete that we have in sport today, many of whom I've listed. And who are you wanting him to serve as role model to? I don't think you can expect urban youth to look at a couple hundred thousand dollar investment as a "personal betterment" play only. I'd say that 99.9% of them are damn well expecting to get paid better because of that education. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #291,055 by mmoffitt 8/17/07 5:08:50 PM Reply	In a nutshell. Our difference is this. 1) When I think of Woods, the first thing I think of is his broken promise to graduate from college. 2) When you think of Woods, you get all weepy. ;0) bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #291,062 by bepatient 8/17/07 8:29:53 PM Reply	Not even close. I see someone who does it right (save his disastrous departure from college according to you) being compared to a bunch of criminals and thugs as >equals< and someone who has a bit of intelligence trying to justify that position and the racist position of his relatives. There's no weep in it. The guy is a huge talent, and thats not just my opinion..but the opinion of the greatest to ever play the sport (and others..you should read what Micheal Jordan says about him) You choose to ignore him because he didn't graduate from college. This is based on your somewhat quaint notion that the only purpose for higher education is self improvement and it serves no other purpose...while high 90s of the rest of the world actually view it as someplace to improve their chances at future employment...something that was obviously not necessary for Tiger since about his 6th birthday. So pardon me if I find your position...which whether you like it or not, places Michael Vick higher as a role model than Tiger Woods simply because he graduated college..completely laughable. Nothing else counts, remember...because its only one statement he made when he was 17 thats branded him for life as far as you are concerned. Simply a sad position you've taken. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #291,172 by mmoffitt 8/19/07 9:46:30 PM Reply	Miss the ;0)? You're right, that isn't out difference. Clearly, Pro education == sad position. What really counts is money, right? That's how you measure success, right? Well, sorry, I've never measured a man's success by the size of his wallet or the elitist company he keeps (Federer anyone?). I tend to measure the success of people by what they've done with their minds in the limited time they have on the planet. And clearly, Woods didn't do all he could with his mind. But he can sure hit a ball well. And Nike gives him 70 million/year to do it. A life well spent without question. Nice herring with Vick, though. From what I gather, Vick doesn't have the intellect of Woods. But they both accomplished roughly the same intellectually. If you can't see that as a far greater tragedy in the case of Woods than Vick, then many of your positions over the years have become very clear to me. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #291,175 by bepatient 8/19/07 10:09:56 PM Reply	No I didn't. And now you are bringing wallet into this when I've not mentioned money once. We're talking about athletes as role models, remember? You brought it up...right after you waxed about how all these new guys with graphite drivers are cheaters. You stated that Tiger is no better than any others black athlete because he didn't finish school. How does introducing Mike Vick, a college grad, qualify as a herring? Its YOUR stated opinion that Tiger is no better because he didn't graduate...so someone who did graduate should be a better role model, right? I tend to measure people by accomplishment of their personal goals. For some that may be money. Clearly athletes make a good dime. Tigers goal was to be the best golfer in the world. Sure he's getting rich doing it. But he's also #1 in the world rankings. He's chasing the biggest record in golf, major wins. He'll have it in about 5 years. His winning percentage on the Tour is unbelievable. These are his goals. When he came onto the tour, the goal of the best players was to get a lot of top ten finishes, qualify for the Tour Championship and that was it. Bruce Lietzke, one of the most gifted natural swingers, built his schedule with this in mind. (He was a friend of my club pro, came to our course alot). Golf as a job. Tiger came to the Tour with the attitude that 2nd place is a loss. It shook those guys up. And his focus at accomplishing his goal is apparent. His practice routine is legend on the Tour. You go ahead and feel sorry for Tiger. College was not a necessary part of him accomplishing his goal. He's still chasing his dream...and while I'm sure he thinks the money is nice, thats not why he plays. Clearly you've got a bug up your butt about him that no amount of rational discussion will remove. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #291,177 by mmoffitt 8/19/07 11:44:56 PM Reply	I don't feel sorry for Tiger. I feel sorry for the kids that look up to him. My point is, and I think that most would agree with me, that kids of all colors, but kids of color in particular need another athlete telling them that education is not important like they need a hole in the head. And in that limited regard, the message from Tiger is the same as any other athlete you can name. In Tiger's case, it was dropping out of Stanford. In most other athletes' cases, it is by failing to have even a rudamentary grasp of the English language, or getting a meaningless diploma from some university they played for. It is more disappointing to me in Tiger's case because I have always accepted at face value the proposition that he could have gotten into Stanford legitimately based upon his academics alone. How many times does that happen? That an athlete (arguably the best in his sport to have ever played) comes along with the intellect and academic rigor such that he can get into Stanford? Right, almost never. Moreover, when he said, "Golf is just a game and it will be there for me after college." he was dead-bang on (and I was pleased to hear his father make similar comments). When I heard him say that, and when he spoke of how his parents had raised him to hold that an education was more important than a game, I thought, "Wow. Here's a kid with his head screwed on right. Corporate Murica's baiting him, but he's not biting. He's gonna break the mold of the modern athlete." But that didn't turn out to be the case, did it? It's not fair, because there is absolutely nothing fair about being a Black man in America, that I am more disappointed that this Black athlete broke his promise on this score. I mean its unfair in the sense that it is not appropriate to assign special significance to him because he is Black. But Black kids do not have many role models and even fewer that tell them to stay in school - by example, which is the only way a kid ever learns anything. I don't regret his not doing all in his life intellectually that he could have for his sake (although that is a pity); rather, it is because he has so many kids looking up to him (none the least of which you allude to in his vaunted foundations). It is a shame that the message he sends them by example is that a game is more important than an education. Don't all kids hear that enough already? bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #291,180 by bepatient 8/20/07 12:46:46 AM Reply	That much is obvious Just as obvious as the fact that you are overlooking the message that he is actually out there giving...which is setting goals and working to achieve them. Like it or not, not everyone has to get a 4 year degree from U of anywhere to achieve their goals. They do, however, have to work hard to achieve their own greatness, in whatever endeavor they go after. You seem to be holding him to >your< standards and begrudge anyone who doesn't hold >your< ideal. In the process, you seem to be lumping a perfectly good role model in with a large gang of thugs. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #291,187 by mmoffitt 8/20/07 10:42:14 AM Reply	You have a point. Sort of. I'd prefer the message to be, "Set meaningful goals and work hard to achieve them." That is my standard and yes, I am disappointed that Tiger failed to live up to those. He and his father used all the right words at first, then 180'ed on me. You can assail me for projection, but I hold that the best way for the kids looking up to him to achieve their goals is to stay in school. How many kids are going to have a Dad that works as a greenskeeper in a Country Club? How many are going to be born with the talent to play professional sports? It is a mean spirited lie perpetuated by athletes that many inner city kids of color can improve their socio-economic status through sport. They stand a far greater chance of accomplishing that goal by staying in school. And despite what you say about Tiger's message, the message those kids learn from him is that school is not important. If you listen closely you can hear them, "Tiger didn't go to school and look at him. Why should I go to school? All I need to do is to learn how to play golf/tennis/basketball/baseball/football well enough and then I'll be a famous, successful person like Tiger is." That's a lesson that for the vast majority of kids is best left unlearned. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #291,190 by bepatient 8/20/07 11:04:58 AM Reply	Which school because, again, your projection is assuming that all these kids will have access to college. They won't. For those that won't, having someone successful tell them that the path to that success means working hard to achieve is something to be promoted. You have him lumped in with folks that are on record saying "practice? practice?" and a bunch of others who don't work hard, tell everyone they don't work hard and are openly combative with the very organizations that allowed them their success. (or worse, in the case of vick, jones, et al). We're not talking about an absolute criteria. If we had our choice of who these kids looked up to, I am with you that my first choice would NOT be from athletics. We don't get that choice...and given a choice of ANY athlete of color to put in front of these kids I'm likely to pick Tiger. He's extremely talented YET he still works harder than anyone with half his game and he promotes a high calibre message to kids about goal setting. Your stated position that he's no better than any other black athlete is simply wrong. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #291,193 by mmoffitt 8/20/07 11:31:44 AM Reply	Saying I'm wrong doesn't make it so. The message of his example is just as bad as any other athlete's. Of course, I'm projecting again. That's only true if you believe that staying in school is a good idea. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #291,194 by bepatient 8/20/07 11:54:51 AM Reply	We're getting nowhere so might as well stop. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #291,199 by mmoffitt 8/20/07 12:46:51 PM Reply	Amen. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #291,198 by Another Scott 8/20/07 12:30:45 PM Reply	Isn't an underlying assumption in all of this... that at-risk young people care about golf? :-/ Such kids care about basketball because courts are everywhere and almost no equipment is needed. Fame and fortune awaits! :-( Similarly with music performers.... Even if Tiger went to Stanford and got his degree before turning pro, I don't think he would have as much impact as a pro basketball player or pro football player with the same background. Yeah, maybe he shouldn't have said he was going to finish school first. But really... :-) Tiger's a bright spot in the world of pro sports, but he's just a tiny bright spot. Finishing at Stanford wouldn't have made that much difference in his appeal to at-risk youth, IMHO. Cheers, Scott.
Post #291,200 by mmoffitt 8/20/07 12:54:31 PM Reply	Finishing school wouldn't have changed his appeal at all. And my whole point is that he could have used his enormous appeal to promote a message seldom (if ever) heard from athletes: education is more important than a game. This whole "He says, 'Set goals, work hard and stick to them'" schtick he gets credited for completely baffles me. He is just another jock. Atypical game, sure. But in the final analysis he is just another jock. He could have been more, but chose not to be. And I still say that is a pity. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #291,212 by Ashton 8/20/07 7:32:56 PM Reply	Sadly, there are only a vanishing-few examples of This combination of nascent-wisdom + the patience to work AND wait.. (for the Big rewards.) Andy Hertzfeld - (orig. Mac team) really Did go back and get his engineering degree, after all those years of exponential growth, 36-hour daze and: with enough bucks to coast mindlessly for life, even. I dunno anymore.. where those with a good chance of achieving adulthood before age 60ish - ought "to go." We have to remember always: Murica IS an 'anti-intellectual' society. From the first, but especially later-on, after lots of cheap toys exploded, next became: the things to Get. Endlessly. The idea of "a liberal education" was always strong with the already-educated, and for them - the idea of a Glorified Trade School instead, was anathema. But levels-of-Crass appear to have risen with every new 'financial instrument' imagineered, until - now, it's ALL about the Money / Getting Yours and - screw Beowulf, Cato (but not the Cato Institute) or ''' apostrophes. Sadly too, for proper weighting of that 'degree' + Murican myths, folkways - AE as Prime example: It does seem that the Very-bright are as often confounded by the ritual/rote aspects of "average(d) coursework" - as actually catalyzed. (Even AE 'consulted' on advanced math - with his first wife and with others, re the heady math of the General/Special Theories. And we know what his Profs thought of his response to their content/style.) Then look at the code genius Alan Turing - killed off by a braindead pecksniff (even Ashcroft was not That sort of cretin - if we are to believe his refusal to sign a blank check for the Constitution - over to the WH mafiosi scum sent to Get One. And he did this while still drugged, yet! +3 for John.) Genius, even - counts for shit in any Puritan-derived group. (And that was UK.. less excuse.) But yeah, at the level of us mere mortals + kids in any ghetto: our entire Star-besotted kultur sends them all the diametrical opposite direction, for them ever to achieve the functioning brain behind that modern rarity - adulthood. (That 'biz-ed' bears little relationship to 'an authentic education' too; that such a choice affects many millions, maybe even: is the strongest dark-force maintaining a plurality here.. at the puerile level of 'consumer'-only -??- Well, no point in a thread of that direction.) You can't diss the Actual Murican godhead ($$$) to any more effect than when one suggests a moratorium on (sugar-water + acids) carbonated beverages -- and those attack the body; only indirectly - this 'Mind' we are trying to feed. That said - ..now, could I have played the trumpet like Sergei Nakariakov (or Alison Balsom) in early-teens? Screw! n lambda = 2d sin theta -- is what I would have said/done :-) (Even ~knowing the precarious existence of instrumental solo work, long -term) Fortunately (??) .. wrong bone-structure for such transcendence. We are NOT 'rational creatures' - except in hindsight and when prescribing for Others. Maybe the bonobos will do a better job with their opposed thumbs. Could hardly do worse. Now, IF NOT ELSE the cockroaches... forget all about Consciousness - a passing fad.
Post #291,196 by boxley 8/20/07 12:07:06 PM Reply	why are you insulting asians? Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #291,201 by mmoffitt 8/20/07 12:54:57 PM Reply	I'm not. I'm all finished insulting anyone. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #291,064 by crazy 8/17/07 10:40:55 PM Reply	Whataprick Guy makes a perfectly reasonable choices with his life, works his ass off to achieve greatness, makes a boatload of money, marries a a gorgeous woman, doesn't screw anyone on the way (at least that I'm aware off), and to you, he's: "Just another n****r with a ball." And don't bother saying it's something your relatives say, because YOU said it. You merely attributed to them. Because he's not good enough for you? Because he decided his life was better worth living not going to school? Amazing.
Post #291,065 by boxley 8/17/07 10:44:15 PM Reply	naw, he's just pissed that he finished school workin his ass off for not much money and can almost play good golf :-) thanx, bill Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #291,076 by jbrabeck 8/18/07 6:30:27 AM Reply	May I jump in and ask a question? How about these two Bill Gates Michael Dell They found their niche while in college. Left and made a lot of money. And so have a large number of other very successful people. Why does his one "failure" override his achievements? He seems to be setting a very good role for others to follow, imho. There are thousands who graduate from college and perform great services and wonderful deeds. But they don't get the press, so they cannot be used as a national role model. Right or wrong, athletes get the coverage. A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. (Herm Albright)
Post #291,083 by imqwerky 8/18/07 11:46:53 AM Reply	Good point Has anyone read Rich Dad, Poor Dad? It throws the old paradigm of "go to school, make good grades, get a good job" right out the window. It's obvious that Tiger is educated and that knowledge is important to him. He's probably a voracious reader. Reading is by far the key to anyone being successful...whether in school or business. If he promoted reading to youngsters, that would be a good thing. Smile, Amy
Post #291,085 by bepatient 8/18/07 12:07:07 PM Reply	Re: Good point HISTORY Since its inception in 1996 by Tiger Woods and his father Earl, the Tiger Woods Foundation has reached an estimated 10 million young people through various programs including the Tiger Woods Learning Center, the Start Something character development program, the TWF Programmatic Grants and Youth Clinics. \ufffdThe road to reaching 10 million kids has been an amazing journey, and I\ufffdm extremely proud of what we\ufffdve accomplished,\ufffd Founder Tiger Woods said. \ufffdI\ufffdm so grateful to everyone who has shared our vision for the past decade. We\ufffdve come a long way in 10 years, and this is just the beginning.\ufffd Programs developed through the Tiger Woods Foundation all share a similar mission of empowering young people to dream big and set specific goals to achieve their dreams. \ufffdWe wouldn\ufffdt be able to celebrate this milestone without my Dad\ufffds vision\ufffd Woods added. \ufffdHis core values are reflected in everything we do, and the millions of kids we\ufffdve reached are a tremendous legacy to his powerful message of caring and sharing.\ufffd In addition to positively affecting the lives of an estimated 10 million young people, TWF has also raised and dispersed more than $30 million to communities nationwide through grants, scholarships and the Tiger Woods Learning Center. Fundraising efforts include the Target World Challenge presented by Countrywide, Tiger Jam presented by AT&T, the TWLC Block Party, the TWF Youth Clinics, the TWLC fundraising campaign and various generous corporate and individual donations. \ufffdThere are many corporations, foundations and individual donors that have done amazing work to help foster TWF\ufffds growth these last 10 years,\ufffd Foundation President Gregory T. McLaughlin said. \ufffdWe are so thankful for their continued vision, support and dedication.\ufffd Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #291,087 by imqwerky 8/18/07 12:40:21 PM Reply	there ya go Thumbs up in my book :) Smile, Amy
Post #291,173 by mmoffitt 8/19/07 9:47:36 PM Reply	Yeah. I want my kids looking up to Bill Gates. [image\|/forums/images/warning.png\|0\|This is sarcasm...] bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #291,049 by boxley 8/17/07 2:26:38 PM Reply	I have been to colleges to lecture and demonstrate getting laid, looking kewl, getting stoned and snotting other colleges and non college folk 90% getting a useful vocational education 3% avoiding getting a job 3% actually enjoying the intelectual pursuit of learning to learn 4% thanx, bill Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #291,053 by mmoffitt 8/17/07 4:57:00 PM Reply	I guess I was in the 4% then. Thanks. ;0) bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.

Welcome to IWETHEY!