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New I never liked it.
Back in the CP/M days WordStar could edit only one document at a time and the command set (WordStar diamond in particular) exhausted the over-used fingers.

EMACS derived word processors could edit multiple documents with easy cut-and-paste among them - absolutely essential in my opinion. The EMACS command set was logical and didn't wear out particular fingers. I used Mince & Scribble > Perfect Writer > Final Word > Sprint. Now I use Papyrus.

I was constantly amazed how WordStar users denied there could ever be a reason to open more than one document at a time. Talk about a program crippling the mind!

Of course, having always used a markup language word processor, visualizing the page as I wrote and marked it, learning to use HTML was dead easy. Not nearly as capable as what I was used to (only academic geeks could possibly conceive a text formatter with almost no control of white space), but basically the same thing.


[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Who ever said it was supposed to be a "text *formatter*"?
[Edit: Fuck fuck fuck... Why is it that, ONLY when I uncheck "Preview", I do INVARIABLY commit a typo? Fuck!]
Expand Edited by CRConrad July 2, 2007, 04:37:52 PM EDT
New Because it is.
It formats text on the screen for viewing and formats text for printing on paper just like any word processor (the Web browser being the component that interprets the html formatting commands). To claim it isn't a "text formatter" is just a cop-out to excuse bad design.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New No it (HTML) is not; as you say, it is the browser that is.
HTML is supposed to be a *semantic* (I think; or some such) markup, interpreted into formatting by the browser alone -- so everyone can get the formatting *they* want (by getting a browser that does it the way they want).

And BTW, AFAIK the HTML standard DOES define the most important whitespace handling (and an eminently sensible design it is too, IMnshO): All consecutive regular whitespace shall be rendered as a single instance of standard whitespace; i.e, usually, equivalent to a space character.

You're getting the whole thing bass-ackwards: To think that HTML *should be* a formatting specification is bad design; to claim that it "must be" (in the sense of "surely is") is a cop-out to excuse not thinking the whole idea through.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
New That's just nuts.
The html script provides formatting instructions by which an author can make a page comprehensible. The browser follows those instructions but is allowed to fit them to user defined margins, point size, font and other necessary adjustments.

This is NO different than a mark-up word processor. The print formatter (equivalent to the browser) interprets the mark-up within the bounds of the margins defined by user or printer definition. Different printer - different page - change the font - different page - exact same deal.

As for gathering all the white space of any kind into a single space - no it doesn't. There's the [br], it doesn't behave that way and is cumulative. So what would be such an awful violation of principle to have an [m] that behaves exactly the same except but with an em space? Duh!

Of course the geeks actually did provide some page layout features, purely by accident - and people with real needs found them highly useful. Without [table] html would be next to useless - but the tag is [table] not [layout] so using it for anything but tables of numbers is not "Politically Correct".

The geeks have been trying for years to stop people from using [table]. They've been promoting overly complex structures like "Cascading Style Sheets" that don't quite work but are politically correct.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
Expand Edited by Andrew Grygus July 2, 2007, 09:39:11 PM EDT
New Incorrect.
HTML provides semantic markup so that, say, H1 elements could be SHOUTED to the user via a speech interface, for example.

A markup wordprocessor puts THIS text at THIS place in THIS font with no variation of size, type or style from that specified by the designer. Changing any aspect of this requires changing the source document. You'll notice that web pages created in this manner are pretty much always rubbish once you zoom the text, for example, or turn images off.

And "politically correct"? Tired phrase used to describe "things I don't agree with", IMHO.

CSS? It's the future, baby. The geeks (as you so charmingly put it, which is ironic, considering that you're a professional one) have won, on that score.



Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
New CSS sucks for table-like things, though.
Or columns, or similar. YUI has a decent implementation of columnar stuffs via CSS, but you have to drink their Kool-Aid.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New I think you're unfamiliar with the days . . .
. . of dot and daisy printers. They couldn't do just any font pitch or point. The printing module (equivalent to the browser) would reformat the page, following the mark-up instructions as best it could, for the particular capabilities of the printer (equivalent to "user") it was sent to.

Keep in mind that html was extracted from a full function page layout mark-up language, sgml. When you cut a rhino in half you get half a rhino, not a giraffe. I'm saying they did a good job with the back half of the rhino but needed to include a little more of the front. You're saying that's irrelevant because it's a giraffe now.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Eye Sea Elle ARRRR Peedee. (new thread)
Created as new thread #288247 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=288247|Eye Sea Elle ARRRR Peedee.]
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
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New Jeez.. I think you just described
..what happened to our 'National Honor'

Only, maybe that was more like a Puffer fish that got grafted to a gnat

New SGML isn't a layout language.
LaTeX, now that's a layout language.

SGML just provides a framework for marking things up.

ETA: No, I do remember those days. I had a Star LC-10 and then an LC24-10 (24 pins! Swanky! Could do proportional spacing!) and I drove them from a variety of software packages which you've never heard of, including View, WordWise, WordWise Plus and Impression Publisher II, running on hardware platforms you've never heard of, including the BBC Micro, BBC Master, Acorn Archimedes and A5000.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
Expand Edited by pwhysall July 4, 2007, 01:39:21 PM EDT
New Pretty cocky of you to think I wouldn't know any of those
Okay, I don't, but I mean, still ...
===

Kip Hawley is still an idiot.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Well, I've heard of the BBC Micro and Acorn . . .
. . and even seen pictures of them, though never the machines in the flesh. The Brits have been quite unable to penetrate the U.S. market (the last abject failure was Tiny - apparently not realizing that Whopper is about as small as we go here).

It'll be interesting to see how Tesco (groceries) does in California. By all reports they're being extra careful about their marketing plan. Maybe I'll be able to snag some marrowfat peas before they go belly up (no I already have Marmite).
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New mmm, marrowfat peas.
Vegetable of champions.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
New No, not "like any wordprocessor".
In direct contrast to "any wordprocessor", HTML is designed to be rendered differently according to the end-user's requirements.

You misunderstand what HTML is for.

ETA: Gah. CRC just said all that.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
Expand Edited by pwhysall July 2, 2007, 06:19:43 PM EDT
New See above . . .
. . the print formatter for a markup word processor does exactly the same, interpreting the markup language to fit the end user's (or printer's) requirements.

And no do NOT misinterpret what html is for. Note that none of the pages I do stop the browser from doing all the adjusting that's appropriate - within the constraints of making a comprehensible page. Your resolution is 32,000 x 64,000 - my paragraphs will fill your screen edge to edge. You want a BIG type size - that'll work too.

You will never find one of those empty right margins in my work.

On the other hand, having worked with other markup languages, I find html a real struggle to make sure the browser can interpret the page in a comprehensible manner. A bit more attention to layout and whitespace would have done wonders.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Harrumphhhh
Given the Times... (and price of a stand-alone Wang)
And speaking as a one acquainted with programming at the time - but never immersed, let alone submerged to the point of oxygen starvation of the little grey cells - -

Methinks the gentleman doth snipe ungratefully at the possibilities of 64 KILObytes, the infancy of grokking what the average Josephine-6pack might manage -- and lots more ways we could characterize WordStar's milieu. (This without going into the peculiarities of Mr. Rubenstein - apparently as warped a persona as young Billy, the ly$dexic perpetual kid-twit.)

Sure, opening Two docs would have been nice. Color, too.
That said, I reiterate the fact of WS's clever, simple Useful mnemonics == contrast that with the utterly Meaningless scheme of WordImperfect: "just set up a table; use up all the <alt><ctrl><et al> combos to see how many things you might want to do: and randomize the 'Menu' -- for programmer lazy-convenience."

[omit further testimonials]

You should have seen friend Patty - cranking out a proposal, having to do with the (CANDU) Canadian boiling-water reactor... Rife with 92U235 notations, multiply! in most sentences -- flying off her fingers.

(You think the handy 'diamond' Too-exercised ?? Well, that depends on whether you'll trade lightning speed du jour, for the as-yet unrecognized RSS coming along later. I deem that opinion ~ personal taste as opposed to any demonstrable actual 'deficit.')

IIRC, we had to correct maybe a handful of typos on that project..
A Zorba made by Mod Comp (the FLA outfit trying to break into consumer toy computers. We used some of their Minis at the Lab) - with at least, a 9" screen to help the eyes - corrections lots Easier than on the 5" Otrona or the silly-scrolling Osborne1.

In sum - WS Got It Right, apparently - a memorizable command set. It just worked, and the tyro could begin actual work output, recalling only a handful of commands: but KNEW where next to look, to amplify on those as occasion demanded. Without an 8x10 laminated crib sheet, set in Agate type.

Without removing hands from the Home row, from whence Everything happened.



Ya gots ta do better than "pro type-setting omissions" to dis WS, bub..

New I can dis it all I want . . .
. . because the EMACS derivatives I was using would run in just as little memory with an even easier to memorize command set - and could edit a half dozen documents at a time under CP/M-80. What'd I have in my S100 machine - 32k I think, and 8" floppy based - and it worked just fine.

The fact that expensive dedicated word processors were far worse is a weak excuse in my opinion.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
Expand Edited by Andrew Grygus July 2, 2007, 05:24:37 PM EDT
New Unresolvable, of course -
You deem the EMACS command set to be as easily grokked by the Utterly Nontechnical as ... WS.

(I'd agree re 'Patty' - but she was hardly an average 'typewriter-trained' office employee, nor was she intimidated by as-yet unfamiliar techno. Now about all those flashing 00:00:00s on all those Difficult-VCRs, then and almost-still: the pool from which typists were drawn... And Presyudents.)

Unresolvable by logical what-ifs, I wot.

New Imagine using
Microsoft Word without a mouse. (Well anything Microsoft, really)

There would be a close approximation. Except Word would be less powerful and flexible.

What about data entry types that have every screen they type to memorized. I've seen them (in the days of serial terms) 10 screens ahead with input.

If you could realistically use Word without using a mouse, I'd imagine people would get far more done in a day. Though yes, the hand would cramp having to do a mind-meld grip to do some formatting options.

Ashton think about Wordperfect BEFORE the GUI came to be realistic. Legal secretaries knew it inside and out... not because it was easy to understand the key bindings... but because they were consistent enough to be able to be trained exceptionally well.

EMACS is very much the same kind of creature. Consistent, easily trainable (though I still don't use it) and very extensible. Extensible as much or as little as you want. Unlike Word.

You need to stop assuming there is a deviant plot to ANYTHING tech we here use. I use Linux, because I have the ability to make it my own and understand it. I could force you to use it and train you as well, rather than WindowsLITE or MAC*R*US, thereby causing you to stop assuming things.

Of course all assumptions are not what they appear to be, now, are they?
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
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New Crtl-F for forward, Ctrl-B for back . . .
. . Ctrl-D for delete - yep, real esoteric it is. And Ctrl-X for extended commands is just so much more difficult to comprehend than Ctrl-K.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New upper case D to delete rest of line, lower case x to delete
character much better. EMACS makes a fine programming tool. vi is the best editor. Although I was partial to the editor that came with brown bag software... cant recall the name at the moment
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Just further proof that using vi cripples the mind.
A modal (text vs. command) editor with case sensitive commands is an abomination on two counts.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New "Electric Pen"?
New I recall "Electric Pencil", but not "Pen"
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Ah - got it!
It was [link|http://www.dans20thcenturyabandonware.com/text/sw-catalogs/software-catalog-dos-sw.txt|PC-Outline!]. Seems they [link|http://www.allbusiness.com/technology/computer-software/326731-1.html|sued Symantec for copyright infringement] too.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
New close, it was pc-write, good list!
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New I loved PC-Outline
Never found an Outliner that worked like it again.
     Whatever happened to WordStar? - (lincoln) - (32)
         I never liked it. - (Andrew Grygus) - (27)
             Who ever said it was supposed to be a "text *formatter*"? -NT - (CRConrad) - (14)
                 Because it is. - (Andrew Grygus) - (13)
                     No it (HTML) is not; as you say, it is the browser that is. - (CRConrad) - (10)
                         That's just nuts. - (Andrew Grygus) - (9)
                             Incorrect. - (pwhysall) - (8)
                                 CSS sucks for table-like things, though. - (admin)
                                 I think you're unfamiliar with the days . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (6)
                                     Eye Sea Elle ARRRR Peedee. (new thread) - (folkert)
                                     Jeez.. I think you just described - (Ashton)
                                     SGML isn't a layout language. - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                         Pretty cocky of you to think I wouldn't know any of those - (drewk) - (2)
                                             Well, I've heard of the BBC Micro and Acorn . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                                 mmm, marrowfat peas. - (pwhysall)
                     No, not "like any wordprocessor". - (pwhysall) - (1)
                         See above . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
             Harrumphhhh - (Ashton) - (11)
                 I can dis it all I want . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (10)
                     Unresolvable, of course - - (Ashton) - (9)
                         Imagine using - (folkert)
                         Crtl-F for forward, Ctrl-B for back . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (7)
                             upper case D to delete rest of line, lower case x to delete - (boxley) - (6)
                                 Just further proof that using vi cripples the mind. - (Andrew Grygus)
                                 "Electric Pen"? -NT - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                     I recall "Electric Pencil", but not "Pen" -NT - (Andrew Grygus)
                                 Ah - got it! - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                     close, it was pc-write, good list! -NT - (boxley)
                                     I loved PC-Outline - (crazy)
         It sucked. It deserved to die. -NT - (bepatient) - (3)
             Any who were Real- (and fast-) *touch-typists* will demur - (Ashton) - (2)
                 As a very fast touch typist - I still demur . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                     I do 70wpm on a good day... - (pwhysall)

I have a cunning plan...
150 ms