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New Huh? [Insert perplexed dog picture here]
--
Chris Altmann
New here
from here
[link|http://www.microsoft.com/technet/archive/ntwrkstn/evaluate/featfunc/kernelwp.mspx?mfr=true|http://www.microsoft...lwp.mspx?mfr=true]
4Commercial implementations of the Carnegie-Mellon University Mach microkernel operating system, for example, typically run at least all file system, networking, and memory management code in kernel mode.
so claiming kernel IP while running on a tweaked Open Source kernel. Even though Richard Rashid has worked for $MS since 1991 I doubt that his work was untainted by prior art.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Umm
That doesn't say or mean "the NT kernel sits on top of Mach".
--
Chris Altmann
New it does, maybe I need a better source
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New links
[link|http://chronicle.com/colloquylive/2003/02/microsoft/|http://chronicle.com...003/02/microsoft/]
Some of the most well-respected software in the world got its start in the academic world. The Mach kernel from Carnegie Mellon University is one example. Microsoft, as I have read, has borrowed a number of technologies from Mach to make Windows 2000 and Windows XP possible. How do the best student programmers protect the originality of their work from Microsoft on a system like Palladium? And how can a new and energetic software developer possibly innovate under a system as closed as Palladium?
[link|http://www.dimi.uniud.it/~lenisa/unix-history.html|http://www.dimi.uniu...unix-history.html]
David Cutler leaves DEC and joins Microsoft (October 31) to develop Windows NT. Microsoft begins evaluating the Mach Kernel.
coincidence? mail between the MS folks [link|http://discussms.hosting.lsoft.com/SCRIPTS/WA-MSD.EXE?A2=ind0002d&L=dcom&D=0&P=5898|http://discussms.hos...L=dcom&D=0&P=5898]
Thanks for your response. This makes sense.
Steve I have read "Inside Windows NT" and understood it. It also says in
section 4.2.2. that initializing address spaces is expensive (relatively)
and that is why threads exist and also called "light weight processes"

This concept of scheduling threads is not alien to me. To me it is a copy of
the concepts developed in Mach kernel. [Did Rick Rashid have a say in
design of NT ? [link|http://www.research.microsoft.com/users/rashid/|http://www.research....com/users/rashid/] ]

For further reference see the paper "Mach Threads and the Unix Kernel: The
Battle for Control." at the CMU site.
[link|http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/mach/public/www/doc/publications.html|http://www.cs.cmu.ed...publications.html]

Steve do I really have to forget all these things I did 8 years ago to be a
Windows programmer ? :->
one more from $MS themselves [link|http://www.microsoft.com/technet/archive/winntas/evaluate/featfunc/windowsn.mspx?mfr=true|http://www.microsoft...wsn.mspx?mfr=true]

Microsoft has called Windows NT a "multiple-personality operating system," as it was designed to support more than one application programming interface (API). This makes it is easier to provide emulation for older OS environments as well as the ability to more easily add new interfaces without requiring major changes to the system. The technique that Windows NT uses is called a "microkernel" and was influenced by the Mach microkernel developed at Carnegie Mellon University. (The kernel is the central part of operating system.)
clean room IP my ass

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New links
[link|http://chronicle.com/colloquylive/2003/02/microsoft/|http://chronicle.com...003/02/microsoft/]
Some of the most well-respected software in the world got its start in the academic world. The Mach kernel from Carnegie Mellon University is one example. Microsoft, as I have read, has borrowed a number of technologies from Mach to make Windows 2000 and Windows XP possible. How do the best student programmers protect the originality of their work from Microsoft on a system like Palladium? And how can a new and energetic software developer possibly innovate under a system as closed as Palladium?
[link|http://www.dimi.uniud.it/~lenisa/unix-history.html|http://www.dimi.uniu...unix-history.html]
David Cutler leaves DEC and joins Microsoft (October 31) to develop Windows NT. Microsoft begins evaluating the Mach Kernel.
coincidence? mail between the MS folks [link|http://discussms.hosting.lsoft.com/SCRIPTS/WA-MSD.EXE?A2=ind0002d&L=dcom&D=0&P=5898|http://discussms.hos...L=dcom&D=0&P=5898]
Thanks for your response. This makes sense.
Steve I have read "Inside Windows NT" and understood it. It also says in
section 4.2.2. that initializing address spaces is expensive (relatively)
and that is why threads exist and also called "light weight processes"

This concept of scheduling threads is not alien to me. To me it is a copy of
the concepts developed in Mach kernel. [Did Rick Rashid have a say in
design of NT ? [link|http://www.research.microsoft.com/users/rashid/|http://www.research....com/users/rashid/] ]

For further reference see the paper "Mach Threads and the Unix Kernel: The
Battle for Control." at the CMU site.
[link|http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/mach/public/www/doc/publications.html|http://www.cs.cmu.ed...publications.html]

Steve do I really have to forget all these things I did 8 years ago to be a
Windows programmer ? :->
one more from $MS themselves [link|http://www.microsoft.com/technet/archive/winntas/evaluate/featfunc/windowsn.mspx?mfr=true|http://www.microsoft...wsn.mspx?mfr=true]

Microsoft has called Windows NT a "multiple-personality operating system," as it was designed to support more than one application programming interface (API). This makes it is easier to provide emulation for older OS environments as well as the ability to more easily add new interfaces without requiring major changes to the system. The technique that Windows NT uses is called a "microkernel" and was influenced by the Mach microkernel developed at Carnegie Mellon University. (The kernel is the central part of operating system.)
clean room IP my ass

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Re: links
I see phrases like "copy of the concepts developed in Mach kernel", and "influenced by the Mach microkernel" which, while they would certainly be pertinent to the current discussion if the patents in question cover those concepts and techniques, does not equate to NT "sitting on top of Mach".

Mac OS X. Now there's something that "sits on top of Mach".

--
Chris Altmann
New mac osx of course sits on top of mach
and they admit it :-)
You are right, until there is a lawsuit and the $MS source code would need to be brought in as evidence would we know for sure that NT uses a hybrid micro kernel, sitting on top of Mach :-)
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New WhatEVar.
It's been common knowledge for, oh, about twelve or thirteen years now, that NT's kernel (and hence W2K/XP/Vista's) is more like VMS than it is like anything UNIX-ish[0]. You even cited the fact that the VMS architect, Dave Cutler, had a lot to do with it.
[0]That's not to say, of course, that any of the VMS goodness has made it into Windows The Product, just that there are shades of VMS The Kernel in Windows The Kernel.


Peter
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     Well, now we know. It *is* going to use patent... - (folkert) - (30)
         Wow...kernel violates 42 different patents - (bepatient) - (10)
             pretty funny as well as the NT Kernel - (boxley) - (9)
                 Huh? [Insert perplexed dog picture here] -NT - (altmann) - (8)
                     here - (boxley) - (7)
                         Umm - (altmann) - (6)
                             it does, maybe I need a better source -NT - (boxley) - (5)
                                 links - (boxley)
                                 links - (boxley) - (3)
                                     Re: links - (altmann) - (2)
                                         mac osx of course sits on top of mach - (boxley) - (1)
                                             WhatEVar. - (pwhysall)
         How do you spell "irrelevant"? - (mmoffitt)
         Looks like a repeat of SCOSource - (JayMehaffey) - (2)
             This is a clear civil RICO case -NT - (boxley)
             Its a very dangerous game - (bepatient)
         To quote an idiot, "Bring it on!" - (a6l6e6x) - (4)
             xenix had a lot of good innovation -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                 Yes, but what did they do with it? -NT - (folkert)
             Don't forget Bob -NT - (jbrabeck) - (1)
                 Fortunately, I was never exposed to it. -NT - (a6l6e6x)
         No they're not. - (Andrew Grygus) - (6)
             Yes. Except... - (folkert) - (3)
                 There's only so deep they can go . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
                     That would be the OTHER Big Giant Corp not being MS... - (folkert)
                     "logic roots in weaving loom" gets 500k hits - (Ashton)
             Remember that anti-trust trumps patent - (tonytib) - (1)
                 Hasn't stopped Microsoft from Biatchin' about Samba. -NT - (folkert)
         Tim Bray (Sun employee... err yeah), in his Blog. - (folkert) - (2)
             Linus agrees - (Steve Lowe) - (1)
                 Microsoft blinked. - (folkert)

How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
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