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New Kansas
and [link|http://www.uberg33k.com/gallery/view_photo.php?full=1&set_albumName=Funny&id=tmbar_Will_the_madness_never_end|disputed theories]/

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New :-D
New Reminds me of when fluoridation of water first came out.
The Luddites said it was poisonous.

"Remember the "n" in fluorine means natural and the the "d" in fluoride means "death"".

Fluorine is perhaps the most corrosive elemental gas there is.
Alex

When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
New The Luddites were correct
Its a matter of concentration. It wasn't used as rat poison because it was inert.

Besides...it was a waste..as there was never any science to support that it had any material impact on anyone's teeth.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New So you vetted all 1,080,000 hits --> into one sound byte?
[link|http://www.cdc.gov/oralhealth/data_systems/policies.htm|http://www.cdc.gov/o...tems/policies.htm]

[link|http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/111/5/1113|http://pediatrics.aa...t/full/111/5/1113]
[. . .]Dental caries results from an overgrowth of specific organisms that are part of normally occurring human dental flora.4 Streptococcus mutans and Lactobacillus species are considered to be principal indicator organisms of those of aciduric bacteria responsible for caries. Human dental flora is site specific, and an infant is not colonized with normal dental flora until the eruption of the primary dentition at approximately 6 to 30 months of age.5,6 The vertical colonization of S mutans from mother to infant is well documented.7,8 In fact, genotypes of S mutans in infants appear identical to those present in mothers in approximately 71% of mother-infant pairs.9 Furthermore, evidence suggests that specific organisms exhibit discrete windows of inoculation; the acquisition of S mutans occurs at an average age of approximately 2 years.10

The significance of this information becomes focused when considering 3 points. First, high caries rates run in families11 and are passed from mother to child from generation to generation. The children of mothers with high caries rates are at a higher risk of decay.12 Second, approximately 70% of all dental caries are found in 20% of our nation\ufffds children.13 Third, the modification of the mother\ufffds dental flora at the time of the infant\ufffds colonization can significantly impact the child\ufffds caries rate.14\ufffd16 Therefore, an oral health risk assessment before 1 year of age affords the opportunity to identify high-risk patients and to provide timely referral and intervention for the child and allows an invaluable opportunity to decrease the level of cariogenic organisms in the mother with a significant caries risk before and during colonization of the infant. [with refs, links - not copied]


Must be awesome to whip through the massively-interrelated nexus of {All About Teeth}, instantly ID all the loonies of whichever recognizable dialects - and conclude ... there was never any science to support that it had any material impact on anyone's teeth.

(And then there's that Darwin thing, brought out by the same folks what postulate gravity theory n'stuff) What a relief -- I can skip the remaining 1,079,950 entries: in your meticulous investigation of them all - you've convinced me that it's 100% bogus.

While you're at this Revealed Truth project -
Have you the figures for $Total payed out to date: for the legions of Iraq mercenaries, too?
(A few in Congress [not that many.. to Our accustomed shame] would like to see those figures) - but they likely don't have your sources and staff of researchers.


Carrion.

New tell it to my friend dominic
[link|http://fluoridealert.org/health/accidents/hooper-bay.html|http://fluoridealert...s/hooper-bay.html]
Im sure he was glad his teeth was pretty for the funeral pics. Thats why I have whole house filtration. Keep all those gummint additives out of my water supply.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Accidents happen. :-(
Chlorine added to water isn't natural, either.

In the proper amount, flourine in water is beneficial in preventing tooth decay. Too much is deadly. In the proper amount, chlorine in water is beneficial in preventing illness. Too much is deadly.

Much of life is like that. Unfortunately.

I know this hits close to home for you. Having friends and relatives affected by a poisoning event (whether due to an accident or caused by incompetence) is a terrible thing. Condolences.

Cheers,
Scott.
New brushing you teeth with salt or having it prescribed is one
thing but to insist that all must partake whether you like it or not means ya'll agree with the regency u grads like
OSHUA BLAKE: Instead of promoting the individual's liberties necessarily, we are looking at what's good for people as far as these values that are found in the Bible.
substituting the bible forconcensus science which is a subterfuge for crap science. Some folks around here arnt a whole lot different.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Do you have issues with all Public Health Initiatives
or just some like fluoride in the drinking water?
Seamus
New where a public issue of forcing public intake
of substances for dubious results Im against. I also think small pox vaccine should be mandatory. DDT in mosquito areas. Notice both have proven track records.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New This one is simple
no proven benefit and high risk as shown in his example.

Its not like chlorine where its disinfectant props are easily demonstrated.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New That's a pretty strong statement.
Can you back it up with detail comparable to [link|http://www.ada.org/public/topics/fluoride/facts/fluoridation_facts.pdf|this PDF from the ADA] (72 pages)?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Scott.
New sure no prob
alaska native villages have been under imposed floridation for some time, my mil, sil, wife who never would drink the water from the taps have normal dentation for reasonable according to the general american population of similar age but except for my wife withoutt access to regular dental care. Now lets look at the native population specifically.
[link|http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:zxaV3nYDqWMJ:www.aap.org/nach/Halliday%2520presentation.pdf+dental+decay+alaska+native+populations&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&lr=lang_en&client=firefox-a|http://209.85.165.10...&client=firefox-a]
s/Alaska Natives
American Indian and Alaska Native oral health
findings from past surveys
one out of three children report missing school
because of dental pain
one out of four children avoid laughing or
smiling, one out of five avoid meeting other
people because of the way their teeth look
one out of four adults are unable to chew hard
foods, 20% report difficulty sleeping, and 15%
limit their activities (I.e. work and leisure) as a
consequence of dental pain
according to you sucking down all that floride should prevent that. It does not in any measurable meaning.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Better link.
[link|http://www.aap.org/nach/Halliday%20presentation.pdf|Overview of the Indian Health Service]. It doesn't mention fluoride.

I don't doubt that health care, including dental care, among Native Americans is poor and substandard. It's a crime that they've been treated so badly by the USA for so long.

The closest article that I've been able to find that talks about fluoridation issues on Indian reservations is [link|http://adr.iadrjournals.org/cgi/reprint/11/2/210|this] 7 page .pdf. It compares Navajo and Lakota experiences with Baltimore and San Antonio. Unfortunately, it doesn't come to any clear conclusions (at least none that jump out at me quickly) but does discuss many factors that make comparisons difficult.

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who realizes that this should have been branched to Epi and Health quite a while ago...)
New point==missed
the older non floride consuming folks have decent teeth, the young kids whose diet is much whitified have rotten teeth. If floride was so good, the teeth should match folks in other floridated white areas, it doesnt. So floride has done no appreciable good in these areas and exposes a risk of death and illness. That is the point Im looking at.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Re: That's a pretty strong statement.
[link|http://www.fluoridation.com/calgaryh.htm|http://www.fluoridation.com/calgaryh.htm]
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New like this quote (jump to e&h) (new thread)
Created as new thread #284575 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=284575|like this quote (jump to e&h)]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New I think the ADA pdf rebuts that very, very well. YMMV.
New who paid for that pdf and put it before them to endorse?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Just attribute all uncomfortable conclusions to malice.
Saves so much trouble ... ... using own brain to dissect, evaluate basic physics concepts - from Experience.

New Well, tell it to my son.
When he was an infant the pediatrician prescribed vitamins with fluoride. At 44 he is still to have his first cavity. And this is after having orthodontic braces in his mid-teenage years. Braces are notorious for holding on to food particles.

I'm with Scott on this one. A little is good and a lot is bad. It could even be said of water.
Alex

When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
New And what do you do about the black helicopters-tinfoil hats?
New ? you are comparing fact with theory
any salt, floride, hydrocloride is a poison and accumulates into the flesh, next time you break a sweat, like it and describe the taste. We should be very careful about adding another salt to a diet where every doctor tells you to cut it out.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Hardly
HCl in stomach ==> salts thereof. Effects depend upon how a particular ion hydrolyzes - great differences in their solubility and other factors like 'reaction rates'. Thousands of "salts" happen, where any anion meets any cation - solubilities in various organs varies as in Chem 101. Etc.

Ie. all "All - -" generalizations are false (including ...)

'In Theory': gravitation happens, antibiotics mutate

New I'm good, what can I say.
NaF has beneficial properties for teeth. However, adding it to the water supply has been shown in several studies to be a complete waste of time. (ie...no statistical data correlation of increases or decreases in decay among children over 5 years old).

So, it has no benefit at all and increases risk of poisoning the water supply (as per box's post).

As to the rest of your post...not in the mood to try and translate it to english nor try and find the relationship between the 2 points.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Do you have a link?
I have a distant relative who always claimed it was natural fluoridated drinking water where she grew that was responsible for her good teeth.

She would probably at 100 if she were still alive.
Seamus
New Nah.

Every time the board of education pulls that crap, they get thrown out and replaced with relatively sane folks. The big things here are still the "vaccines make kids autistic" crap and the perennial sex-education controversies.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
New Well, as a parent of a child with autism
and with no family history on either side, I'm not convinced that there's no connection. I do think there are multiple environmental factors that are influencing this, but looking at vaccines in isolation doesn't dismiss it for me... there's been zero examination of synergistic effects of vaccines with other persistent ubiquitous chemicals like flame retardants or various plastics that give off various gases... and looking at the rates it's very clear that there have to be environmental effects that are driving the rise in the rates in autism. Simply put, going from 1/10,000 births forty years ago to 1/154 births today is not explainable from a straightforward diagnostic perspective.

I'd like to see a comparison of the rates of severe autism, just to clear up the dismissal of the rise as a result of better diagnosis of PDD in the population. After having done a fair chunk of reading on this stuff over the last five years, I'm not buying the line that "it's all a result of diagnosis and not because of x, y, and z in our environment."
New Agree entirely with your theses
The N! (factorial-) Factor == precisely that sort of massive interaction which demands rather expensive (and difficult to conceive well) experiment$ to refine the search.

There's no profit for the Greedheads/marketers of All This Sgit we have been spreading around utterly blindly, for decades. There's also little incentive for 'representatives' funded by the Greed-heads -- ever to embark on a difficult open-ended process like (as your example eloquently demonstrates)

*WHY* 1/10,000 births forty years ago to 1/154 births today ???

Etc. As a species, permeated by the smug presumption of 'sentience' and other sanctimonious self-congratulatory hype --in every National Anthem--
We. Are. SOOO. Fucked.



My 300 Cholera \ufffd

New I know I shouldn't, but...
*WHY* 1/10,000 births forty years ago to 1/154 births today ???
\r\n\r\n

NIMH's "conservative estimate" for autism is currently 2-6/1000. The "one in 150" is for "autism spectrum disorders", which are an extremely broad category including everything from Rain Man to folks who act "normal". And note that Asperger's, which is trying to displace ADD as the "of course there's a medical reason why your child isn't paying attention in school" diagnosis, is an "autism spectrum" disorder. Which, in the end, does a disservice to the real thing.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
New Thus: the Gaussian's base is broad
Am well aware that 'changing definitions' constantly alter the specificity of symptoms which one is attempting to correlate. That's an expected consequence of new lore, and of the N! arithmetic of any large scale view.

My (sufficiently general) thesis remains -- there is damn little $$ spent to pursue the overall effects of [most of] the millions of substances now to be found in trace amounts in tissue -- which track the er, Industrial .. in some cases, like Dumth-rising? .. Devolution.

(My statistically-unworthy lifetime sampling reveals, simply: dumbth Is on the rise.)
I'm not yet sure if the i-Pod and its now conditioned-effects, the perpetual tuning-out of all other environmental activities: will be a large marker in a dumbth investigation of say, 2017? Ten years enough for a new benchmark on 'consciousness level'? If anyone can still do stats, then.. of course.

Imagine: [massive varieties of contaminants + techno consciousness-lowering devices]:

Working Together! >to make the cockroach #1 species on Terra<

;-j

New Asperger is not about attention deficits
Nor do I think is it trying to replace ADD or ADHD. It, like Autism is a communication disorder. As a spectrum disorder, no 2 kids with Aspergers look alike.

Kids with Aspergers often have difficulty learning language pragmatics. IMO not having been taught language pragmatics during the appropriate developmental phase can look the same as having difficulties with language pragmatics.
Seamus
New And probably quite a number of kids with "ADD"...

...don't actually have ADD. Asperger's is/has been a fad diagnosis for kids who're having trouble in school, just as ADD used to be (and to an extent still is). That doesn't say anything about what either condition actually entails in those who have them, but instead is an observation on the way we treat our children and our school system in this modern world.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
New The point I was trying to make was that I don't think
Aspergers is trying to replace ADD, as you mentioned earlier. If they are false positives, they happen for different reasons. ADD or ADHD can get diagnosed by MDs, Aspergers I don't believe is being diagnosed by MDs. If an overly stimulated kid is given a stimulant and becomes a more focused child it is easy to diagnose that as ADD. There may be no way to tell whether the child just wasn't able to learn to focus or there really is a biological problem with the kids activators and inhibitors. With enough motivation, kids learn to focus if they are able. Learning language pragmatics is not as easy to pick up once you have failed to learn them at the usual developmental stage.
Seamus
New I haven't read that post, just the subject line
Pretending I don't know it's only the first half of the sentence is much more fun.
===

Kip Hawley is still an idiot.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Be careful with those stats

The "one in 154" number, as I've explained to Ashton, isn't quite what you're making it out to be.

\r\n\r\n

Also, the part of the original paper which reported a link between the MMR vaccine and autism has since been retracted by the authors, citing a lack of evidence to back the claim that MMR and autism are linked, and numerous independent attempts to demonstrate a connection have failed to yield any such results.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
New Cecil weighs in.
[link|http://www.straightdope.com/columns/070608.html|The Straight Dope] on vaccines and Autism.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Intersting
From the straight dope page: "A British study of 5,763 children in 2004 showed only a statistically insignificant link between MMR vaccine and autism; a study of 27,749 children in Montreal found no MMR link to autism or related problems." (Emphasis mine.)

My son actually participated in that. His blood was sampled twice, and was to be sampled a third time. His first sample contained a lot of mercury, and they said they wanted to double check it. They said the same about the second sample, and wanted to take a third, and then... they changed their minds.
New I can't explain what you experienced.
I could speculate....

Perhaps the mercury in your son's blood was too high to be just from his vaccines. Perhaps mistakes were made. Perhaps they discarded data on your son. I can't explain what happened. I'm sure it's very frustrating and aggravating not to know. :-(

A link to the Pediatrics article that has the study, their methodology, etc., is [link|http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/118/1/e139|here]. I don't know if you need a subscription to access it.

RESULTS. We found 180 children (82.8% males) with a pervasive developmental disorder diagnosis who attended the surveyed schools, yielding a prevalence for pervasive developmental disorder of 64.9 per 10 000. The prevalence for specific pervasive developmental disorder subtypes were, for autistic disorder: 21.6 of 10 000; for pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified: 32.8 of 10 000; and for Asperger syndrome: 10.1 of 10 000. A statistically significant linear increase in pervasive developmental disorder prevalence was noted during the study period. The prevalence of pervasive developmental disorder in thimerosal-free birth cohorts was significantly higher than that in thimerosal-exposed cohorts (82.7 of 10 000 vs 59.5 of 10 000). Using logistic regression models of the prevalence data, we found no significant effect of thimerosal exposure used either as a continuous or a categorical variable. Thus, thimerosal exposure was unrelated to the increasing trend in pervasive developmental disorder prevalence. These results were robust when additional analyses were performed to address possible limitations because of the ecological nature of the data and to evaluate potential effects of misclassification on exposure or diagnosis. Measles-mumps-rubella vaccination coverage averaged 93% during the study interval with a statistically significant decreasing trend from 96.1% in the older birth cohorts (1988-89) to ~92.4% in younger birth cohorts (1996-1998). Thus, pervasive developmental disorder rates significantly increased when measles-mumps-rubella vaccination uptake rates significantly decreased. In addition, pervasive developmental disorder prevalence increased at the same rate before and after the introduction in 1996 of the second measles-mumps-rubella dose, suggesting no increased risk of pervasive developmental disorder associated with a 2-measles-mumps-rubella dosing schedule before age 2 years. Results held true when additional analyses were performed to test for the potential effects of misclassification on exposure or diagnostic status. Thus, no relationship was found between pervasive developmental disorder rates and 1- or 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella immunization schedule.


I know a little of what you're going through with your son. My older brother has Autism. It's tough to deal with.

Hang in there.

Cheers,
Scott.
     Kansas - (imric) - (38)
         :-D -NT - (Another Scott)
         Reminds me of when fluoridation of water first came out. - (a6l6e6x) - (23)
             The Luddites were correct - (bepatient) - (22)
                 So you vetted all 1,080,000 hits --> into one sound byte? - (Ashton) - (21)
                     tell it to my friend dominic - (boxley) - (18)
                         Accidents happen. :-( - (Another Scott) - (13)
                             brushing you teeth with salt or having it prescribed is one - (boxley) - (12)
                                 Do you have issues with all Public Health Initiatives - (Seamus) - (11)
                                     where a public issue of forcing public intake - (boxley)
                                     This one is simple - (bepatient) - (9)
                                         That's a pretty strong statement. - (Another Scott) - (8)
                                             sure no prob - (boxley) - (2)
                                                 Better link. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                     point==missed - (boxley)
                                             Re: That's a pretty strong statement. - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                 like this quote (jump to e&h) (new thread) - (boxley)
                                                 I think the ADA pdf rebuts that very, very well. YMMV. -NT - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                                     who paid for that pdf and put it before them to endorse? -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                         Just attribute all uncomfortable conclusions to malice. - (Ashton)
                         Well, tell it to my son. - (a6l6e6x)
                         And what do you do about the black helicopters-tinfoil hats? -NT - (CRConrad) - (2)
                             ? you are comparing fact with theory - (boxley) - (1)
                                 Hardly - (Ashton)
                     I'm good, what can I say. - (bepatient) - (1)
                         Do you have a link? - (Seamus)
         Nah. - (ubernostrum) - (12)
             Well, as a parent of a child with autism - (jake123) - (11)
                 Agree entirely with your theses - (Ashton) - (6)
                     I know I shouldn't, but... - (ubernostrum) - (5)
                         Thus: the Gaussian's base is broad - (Ashton)
                         Asperger is not about attention deficits - (Seamus) - (3)
                             And probably quite a number of kids with "ADD"... - (ubernostrum) - (2)
                                 The point I was trying to make was that I don't think - (Seamus) - (1)
                                     I haven't read that post, just the subject line - (drewk)
                 Be careful with those stats - (ubernostrum) - (3)
                     Cecil weighs in. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                         Intersting - (jake123) - (1)
                             I can't explain what you experienced. - (Another Scott)

Damn thing ate it's way out of the box it was in and lived in my closet for a month.
228 ms