Post #28,398
2/14/02 3:42:02 PM
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What does this mean?
I've given up fighting with Red Had 7.2 over my wireless NIC(the one I ordered from Germany that comes with OS/2 drivers). I noticed on [link|http://www.artem.de/english/index.shtml|Artem's site] that "SuSE has accredited the ARtem Onair ComCard-PC for Linux 7.3: "Ready for SuSE Linux". A couple days later I picked up SuSE 7.3 and installed it. One thing I noticed right off that made me happy is that I can once again access my OS/2's HPFS partitions under Linux. I could with Red Hat 7.1, but 7.2 no longer supports HPFS.
During the installation of SuSE the NIC's connection light came on, so I was rather happy. All was not well though after the install was done. The computer does the high-low tone when the NIC is inserted.
I've read over SuSE's [link|http://sdb.suse.de/en/sdb/html/pcmcia_wavelan.html|use WaveLan PCMCIA cards] page, but don't know what this means:
install the package 'wireless-tools' from series 'ap'.
Darrell Spice, Jr.
[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #28,401
2/14/02 3:55:50 PM
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Use YaST2
To install that package.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #28,531
2/15/02 2:47:22 PM
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What's series 'ap'?
I thought YaST2 was right, but didn't see anything in regards to the series 'ap' bit when I ran it.
Darrell Spice, Jr.
[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #28,554
2/15/02 6:33:01 PM
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Re: What's series 'ap'?
YaST2->Software->Install/Remove Software
Click "Show Package Sets"
"ap" is the second one down: "Programs without X"
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #28,568
2/15/02 8:30:23 PM
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Arrrrrgh!
No wonder I'm having problems! [link|http://www.suse.de/en/products/suse_linux/i386/packages_professional/diff_pers_prof.html|Differences SuSE Linux Personal / Professional] ...
wireless-tools 21 (ap)
...
There was only one SuSE 7.3 box at the store, and of course it was the Personal Edition. Think I'll head out to Fry's tomorrow. Darrell Spice, Jr.
[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #28,690
2/16/02 8:52:03 PM
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Well... (asking for an honest opinion)
I guess I am the only one around that rolls my own Kernel and adds in support for anything I want/need and makes it work.
Geez, I guess what has been said about me might be true then...
"If you think Linux can't do it, talk to Greg and find out what he thinks..."
SO here it is:
Am I the only one here that just makes stuff work with Linux? If that means adding in modules to the kernel tree, adding in utilities/progs not provided by XYZ distro, and modifing the Kernels source to accomodate special applications...(Oracle, realtime apps, render farms, heavy transactional webservers, TEAMED servers, Clusters...etc)
Come on!, I have got to believe I am not the ONLY one here doing this...
Oh, BTW Darrell, RH does not have support for your card for sure. If you look at thier default configs in the /usr/src/linux-2.4.X-XX/configs directories, you will see they do not compile even the modules for it(HERMES), nor do they even compile the module for HPFS or NTFS and definately not with Write support for either.
That is why I roll my own Kernel starting with Vanilla, I like of the configs they have to start with, and change from there. I also addin the current(stable)drivers for somethings they support, plus I add in latest(stable) drivers for things like the Intel E100+/E1000+ NIC, Megaraid controllers and the 3ware stuff, those and iSCSI. Have even swapped out the VM for hacking around on my desktop machine at work.
Please respond, as I am beginning to think I am out of touch with the way things are in IT, the way things have been appearing to me lately (here and abroad). Don't let me get a big head here cause that would be bad for all concerned!!!!
greg, curley95@attbi.com -- REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!
In 2002, everyone will discover that everyone else is using linux. ** Linux: Good, fast AND cheap. ** Failure is not an option: It comes bundled with Windows. ** "Two rules to success in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know." - Sassan Tat
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Post #28,699
2/16/02 9:53:56 PM
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Oh, I do a little of that.
Before I deliver a Linux machine I go in and clean up the kernel and recompile. I rarely have to add anything that wasn't already listed in the config list. I use Caldera, and generally use menuconfig for the cleanup operation.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #28,723
2/17/02 3:47:27 AM
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Why rolling your own is sometimes a bad idea
The kernel packages that the likes of Red Hat and SuSE provide have a degree of QA and testing that you can't provide.
You have some assurance that a particular vendor release of a kernel won't have horrendous bugs in it. Frexample, you'll never see a 2.4.11 kernel from Red Hat - but if you were quick off the mark, you could have downloaded and installed that before Linus got a chance to tag it "2.4.11-DONTUSE".
I basically take the attitude that rolling your own kernel is only a valid exercise if the vendor-provided one doesn't do what I want.
The performance advantage these days is negligible as most drivers are now provided as modules anyway.
Peter
Shill For Hire
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Post #28,737
2/17/02 1:25:52 PM
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Low risk with Caldera
Unlike Red Hat (or practically any other distribution), Caldera certifies that the source code shipped with the distribution is the source code used to build the kernel that was shipped with the distribution.
This quality issue is a primary reason why Caldera stopped distributing Red Hat and started producing their own distribution, and is one of their primary "value adds".
Further, I do not incorporate into the kernel any code from outside the Caldera distribution unless absolutely necessary for some special purpose. I'm not a hobbyist, you know.
On the other hand, I don't see why the kernel should carry SMP on a single processor system, or have hooks for a zillion modules and capabilities that will never be used. Rebuilding the kernel is very easy, so why not clean it up?
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #28,705
2/16/02 11:48:15 PM
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I was into that once
I could make the VIC 20, C64 and C128 do amazing things by patching machine language routines into the kernel and basic. I wrote a BBS/term package that could do real time music at 300 baud while playing online games that utilized your joystick and interrupt driven character and sprite animation. I'd also hacked the modem routines and could push the 300 baud modem up to 450 baud for a 50% improvement in online speed. While it was interesting and fun to do, the knowledge of "the guts" of the Commodore computers isn't very useful anymore.
If I worked with Linux(I'm at a "windows shop") I'd probably be more interested in learning it's guts. But since I'm just dabbling with it (I mostly use OS/2 at home), I just want something that works with minimal fuss so I can do other things that I'm interested in. Like lately I've gotten into home theater and purchased an HDTV set. While I can deal with the set fine, people visiting get overwhelmed with the number of options and remotes to contend with. Want to watch a hi-def show? Then grab the TV remote and turn on the TV and switch to HD input and then grab the cable remote, turn on the STB and select one of the 9 HD channels that are intermingled in the list with 200+ other channels. Decide to watch something on a "normal" station, don't forget to grab the TV remote and switch the TV over to the STB input. Time for a DVD... To solve that, I'm investigating all-in-one remotes like the [link|http://www.remotecentral.com/prontopro/index.html|Pronto Pro]. It's a palm pilot looking remote control that's fully programmable. Create a "main menu" with buttons Watch HDTV, Watch TV, Watch DVD and so on. Hit the Watch HDTV option and the TV turns on and switches to the HD input, the cable box turns on, and the remote changes to a page with icons for the 9 HDTV channels. Decide to watch a DVD, then press the Main Menu button, then Watch DVD and the TV switches over to the DVD input and the DVD player powers up and ejects the tray so you can put a movie in, and finally the remote changes to a page with DVD control options.
Darrell Spice, Jr.
[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #28,724
2/17/02 3:55:40 AM
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No disrespect...
...but I have a feeling your "customize everything" approach could lead to systems that aren't very supportable when you're not there.
Unless, of course, you're the kind of guy who's an angel with the paperwork and who documents everything he does and why...
The Linux systems in my care are supportable because (a) I document my work and (b) they're Red Hat Linux systems, not Red Hat Linux, Peter Whysall Edition Turbo EX Plus Alpha 3D systems.
Peter
Shill For Hire
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Post #28,768
2/17/02 7:08:08 PM
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None Taken (long again)
I agree that it could lead to unsupported systems. The mere fact that I have included things not in the base distribution, could be said about ANY system that runs anything except "basically" anything except Apache, Sendmail,PHP, MySQL, Perl...etc... You see I am charged with getting the most reliability AND performance out of systems in the category I work with. Yes customizing everything would be bad... but I start with a Vanilla Kernel for one reason to track the changes I make to it... I DO NOT know where the RedHat Kernel Series is typically at ANY given point, I look at alot of thier mods and add some into mine. If a feature that I need they do not provide, I put it in. On the other hand, the umount bug in the 2.4.2 and 2.4.3 RedHat kernels REALLY sucked tremendously. I even filled out a bugzilla report. They had a Custom Kernel for me. Eventually a revised kernel came out in the Errata. But alnog time after I needed a fix. I D/L'd the 2.4.7 source, massaged it, looked at the fixes they provided for 2.4.3-custom, made sure similar if not exact same changes were there. Added in the support for "RedHat" Centric items I use, added in the ones I need... recompiled. System is STILL running that Kernel to this day. Been restarted 3 times since then, once due to a drive failure. This machine runs as an extremely busy Squid Server and as a Webserver with docroot on a Netware file server. As for Oracle, Oracle themselves officially reccomend a modified Kernel to meet thier needs in a busy machine. I also know that IBM also does the same for DB2. Cutom kernels abound in the commercial environment also. HP-UX and SAM allow changing intricate kernel settings at compile time. IBM and AIX also have a SMIT plugin for it too. Sun does this too, as well. Compaq also is in that realm with Sysman. So for being unsupported, I'd take bets on that not being the case, even with RedHat. I guess you read things a bit wrong from me. I basically have the Super Best fully uptodate RedHat distro with all Errata installed where relevant (packages not installed wouldn't need updating), now the differences I have that matter that are "different" from default are:
1) Kernel being patched/altered from Vanilla to start from a widely known reference
2) Additional device support added to that kernel using those patches/additions
3) Additoinal binary/program support for those devices added to the kernel
Now, my build process is very different from most, I am guessing from what I read here from multiple people/posts. I run these machines though the wringer (literally) to weed out any problems. I burn things in using the build I did with it. Then remove the burn-in progs/scripts. I then go through a checking process to make sure everything's working as expected, before I turn it over to developers. I also differentiate between Play-Things, Development and Production. Each has it's things I'll do with them, just that Dev and Prod are more conservative. So Mister Whysall.. stick that in your RedHat!!! ;)
greg, curley95@attbi.com -- REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!
In 2002, everyone will discover that everyone else is using linux. ** Linux: Good, fast AND cheap. ** Failure is not an option: It comes bundled with Windows. ** "Two rules to success in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know." - Sassan Tat
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Post #28,791
2/18/02 3:40:38 AM
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Rolling your own...
That's got a few connotations out here, not all of 'em legal....
In the Debian tradition, there's a bit of a difference from RedHat as far as package selection goes. There's also a pretty bloody complete set of packages (8000+ in unstable) so going outside the distro is fairly rare. When RPMs are available but not Debs, the alien package allows integration of the RPM into the packaging system. Debian's packaging system does a good job of documenting system state.
For kernels, the make-kpkg package provides support for including your roll-your-own kernels into the packaging system. I tend to compile my own kernels, but do so through make-kpkg. Debian also keeps the corresponding configuration file in /boot, making identification of kernel modules that much easier.
In general, I somewhat agree with Peter's PoV. It's possible to tweak the hell out of a box for extreme performance, cutting edge features, etc. But the admin costs of doing so will tend to exceed the hardware costs of an appropriate solution in all but the most extreme instances. Where there's truely no other eway, this may be an accceptable practice. In general, I feel much more comfortable sticking to methods and options supported within the standard configuration parameters for your system.
I had a coworker at a prior poisiton who'd come from a public web hosting site. Being used to configuring apache for servers that would run hundreds of hits per minute, he'd compiled his own apache under /usr/local/bin and created init scripts to bring up the server. This for a box that might encounter 300 hits in a day, on a articularly busy day.
Needless to say, after he left, the configs were something of a mystery, and after a power outage, the box failed to bring up the webserver appropriately, leaving some critical systems ofline. We'd have been far better off with a default Debian apache installation.
I do differ with Peter over his choice of distro, naturally ;-) I find that Debian's configurations are both more sane (and tested) than RH's, and that the packaging system is sufficiently complete that going outside of it is very rare.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
[link|http://kmself.ix.netcom.com/|[link|http://kmself.ix.netcom.com/|http://kmself.ix.netcom.com/]]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
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Post #28,893
2/19/02 8:48:39 AM
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Re: Rolling your own...(But keeping the Docs handy)
I very much see where every one is going here. I would hope that everyone here also sees the point I am trying to make here.
The point I make is, customization is typically NOT out of the ordinary, especially for HIGH LA machines, with tons of IO and Memory requierments. That, in fact is a norm throughout the Commercial *NIX Corporations, allowing the admins to indeed make a custom kernel for thier machine. Sure, on HP boxen, it's STILL an HP-UX kernel customized as it is (with patches from them for NEW device support via software packs on CD). On RS-6000 machine is still AIX (with APARs to support new devices). On Sparc it's still Solaris (at least for now ;) with Patches also for new devices support..
If any of you can't see my correlation between these, you and I are definately not in the same industry. Customization without documentation, is a bad thing. Customization WITH documentation is a GOOD thing.
I also tend to follow-up a "source" install of things like apache to conform to RedHat's and the LSB's way of doing things. I sym-link most everything RedHat expect to be some where to where it was actually place. Without modifying ANY logrotate configs, rc.d/init.d scripts, or things similar these machines come-up and go down JUST like a default install. The one thing I do, for most everything I do install from source rather than RPM (even though they be the same packages with same setup and such.. just to remove the "redhat" label in everything to appease some of my management) it do the "--justdb" feature of RPM. That allows me to have a dependency for Apache and all of redhat's "module packages" so when someone (being me or someone after me) tried to install an RPM that updates those dependancies it complains or at least alerts them to problems.
I really must say that I am doing a great job for the person who replaces me. I have documentation, I use TSM (or ADSM as all the docs still say) for backups and I use quality hardware with burn-in testing... I wish I had it so well when I came into this position. Person before me, never really documented much of anything except passwords... sometimes.
greg, curley95@attbi.com -- REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!
In 2002, everyone will discover that everyone else is using linux. ** Linux: Good, fast AND cheap. ** Failure is not an option: It comes bundled with Windows. ** "Two rules to success in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know." - Sassan Tat
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Post #28,925
2/19/02 11:39:30 AM
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Yes, it is normal.
When installing SCO Unix I relink the kernel three or four times for drivers and once or twice for tuning. The only real difference is that the code is pre-compiled (since the environment can be completely known), so only the link step is taken.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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