Annals of law

Post #282,123 by rcareaga 4/17/07 10:21:03 AM Reply	Annals of law Thoughtcrime [link\|http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003667117_eject15.html\|doubleplusungood!] (emphasis added): DENVER \ufffd Lawyers for two men charged with illegally ejecting two people from a speech by President Bush in 2005 are arguing the president's staff can lawfully remove anyone who expresses points of view different from his. Lawyers for the two, Michael Casper and Jay Klinkerman, said the men were working as organizers for a public presidential forum on Social Security at the Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum in Denver on March 21, 2005, when they were involved in ejecting two audience members, Alex Young and Leslie Weise. Young and Weise filed a lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Denver, saying they were ejected shortly after they had arrived in a car that had an anti-war bumper sticker, although they had done nothing disruptive. The suit charged Casper and Klinkerman with violating Young's and Weise's First Amendment right to free speech. Casper and Klinkerman lost their motion for dismissal, and last week their lawyers filed an appeals brief arguing that their clients had the right to take action against Young and Weise because the two held views different from those of Bush. "The president's right to control his own message includes the right to exclude people expressing discordant viewpoints from the audience," says the brief. I have rung the bell here. Let's see how long it takes for some authoritarian/statist poodle fancying himself a rugged individualist/libertarian timberwolf to salivate onscreen. cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #282,127 by Yendor 4/17/07 10:41:07 AM Reply	YGBFSM, right? -YendorMike "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Post #282,182 by CRConrad 4/17/07 3:59:31 PM Reply	S= ..."Shitting", right? 'Coz I think I'm getting "You Gotta Be Fucking ** Me, right" right, right? [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad]** (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #282,183 by Another Scott 4/17/07 4:06:31 PM Reply	Bingo. I think.
Post #282,184 by Yendor 4/17/07 4:09:46 PM Reply	Righto -YendorMike "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Post #282,131 by bepatient 4/17/07 11:00:39 AM Reply	Defense must be pretty desperate. Aside from misguided. Essentially saying that it is entirely acceptable to load an audience at a public forum. Bzzt, wrong answer. Although it appears from the spate of lawsuits that it was that the 2 may guessed correctly at their intent. And I don't understand the "free speech" angle. They shouldn't be arguing in the counter position about free speech..since in their own words they didn't say anything. Should be the right to assemble. Other than that, hope they win. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #282,159 by Silverlock 4/17/07 1:28:32 PM Reply	Bumper sticker = speech ----------------------------------------- You can fire an at will employee for good cause or no cause, but not bad cause.
Post #282,173 by bepatient 4/17/07 2:23:36 PM Reply	Unless they actually said "we're throwing you out because of your bumper sticker" then I think that might be a stretch by the prosecution that would be desperately hard to prove and incredibly easy to defend. Defense..we didn't see the sticker. Case closed. I certainly hope they have more than that and they probably do...as the article is somewhat light on what the evidence of the case is. Its a true "thought police" case though. I hope the judge writes a very clear opinion in support of the plaintiffs. Of course, if they do...they might give the Hillary heckler grounds to sue also. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #282,176 by Silverlock 4/17/07 2:50:09 PM Reply	Without the sticker, how did they know? Two people coming in to an event. Goon says to himself, "These are troublemakers. I just know it". Kicks 'em out. Yeah, right. The only clue they had that these people might end up "expressing discordant viewpoints" was the bumper sticker. This wasn't after they had entered and caused a disruption. They were prevented from entering. If it wasn't because of the bumper sticker, what was the reason they believed these two would unfortunately expose Bush to public opinion? ----------------------------------------- You can fire an at will employee for good cause or no cause, but not bad cause.
Post #282,188 by bepatient 4/17/07 4:53:30 PM Reply	Making up facts Article says they were "ejected". Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #282,190 by CRConrad 4/17/07 5:12:29 PM Reply	Uncharitable interpretation (Why am I not surprised?) A more charitable one would be, "you illitterate Colonial baboon!" -- it's easy (especially for an ICB) to misread "ejected" as "rejected". [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #282,191 by pwhysall 4/17/07 5:13:15 PM Reply	Irony? Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #282,203 by Silverlock 4/17/07 6:04:08 PM Reply	Using memory. From the original article about this by the NY Times. They were detained and "ejected" before they got into the seating area. I don't have a subscription to the Times so I can't pull up the original article. Here's a copy [link\|http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1122-06.htm\|Link]. Notice that no where in any reporting of this is a disruption of the event in any manner described. They were stopped before entering the actual speaking area of the event and then forced to leave before they were able to carry out their DFHness in the presence of the President. ----------------------------------------- You can fire an at will employee for good cause or no cause, but not bad cause.
Post #282,207 by Another Scott 4/17/07 6:54:44 PM Reply	Denver Post articles. [link\|http://www.denverpost.com/spencer/ci_5357001\|Jim Spencer commentary]: Friday, in depositions, two White House volunteers charged with unconstitutionally suppressing speech finally explained why Leslie Weise, Alex Young and Karen Bauer were asked to leave before the president arrived. James O'Keefe, a senior White House advance representative, and Steve Atkiss, then-deputy director of the White House advance office, separately told volunteer Mike Casper to ask Weise, Young and Bauer to leave, Casper testified Friday. The reason why Weise, Young and Bauer had to go, according to Casper and fellow volunteer Jay Bob Klinkerman, was because others identified the three as having disrupted prior Republican events, said Casper's attorney, Sean Gallagher. Gallagher said Klinkerman named Andy Merritt as one of the people who fingered Weise, Young and Bauer. Merritt is Sen. Wayne Allard's state director and the Republican chairman of the 5th Congressional District. Merritt denied saying Weise, Young and Bauer had disrupted prior events. "I was not thinking they were going to kill somebody," he added. Merritt said he arrived at the Social Security forum at the same time as a car with bumper stickers that said, "No Blood for Oil" and "Save the Environment, Plant a Bush." "Five people got out of the car - two older people and three younger ones," said Merritt, who until Friday had never revealed his involvement in the scandal, even to his boss. "They split up. The older couple went to one entrance, and the three younger people went to another. They didn't interact with other people." An older couple arrived with the three, Young responded, but in another car. Still, Merritt told Klinkerman about the bumper stickers and the "suspicious behavior." Merritt also warned event officials that they "might want to watch" Weise, Young and Bauer. Behold the Bush administration's partisan dirty tricks laid bare. For two years, the president's press staff, including former press secretary Scott McClellan, blamed this mess on overzealous volunteers. "We welcome diversity of views at the events," McClellan once said of the Denver Three. Stop, drop and roll. "We thought there was a practice and policy coming from the highest levels of the White House to expel people from public events if they disagreed with the president," said Mark Silverstein of Colorado's American Civil Liberties Union. Now, Silverstein said he has the proof. Atkiss and O'Keefe will be added to a federal lawsuit, Silverstein said. Martha Tierney, another of Young's and Weise's attorneys, said no decision had been made about suing Merritt. Weise, Young and Bauer have denied protesting at earlier Republican events. State Republican officials, meanwhile, had heretofore denied any role in the Denver Three debacle. "All I did was point out suspicious behavior," Merritt insisted. He didn't need to disclose his role, he added, because nobody cared. Stop, drop and roll. Weise, Young and Bauer came to the Social Security forum wearing T-shirts under their clothes that said "Stop the Lies." They never showed those shirts. They did nothing disruptive. They were shown the door on the suspicion that they might upstage the president. Atkiss told Denver Post reporter Bruce Finley that this was White House policy. Here's [link\|http://www.denverpost.com/ci_5341085\|Denver Post] story with a few more details. It seems clear they were kicked out before the event started. How far they got inside the building, and whether it fits with a definition of "ejected" isn't clear. Cheers, Scott.
Post #282,137 by tuberculosis 4/17/07 11:39:10 AM Reply	Must not crash the emperor's groove We posture as apostles of fair play, as good sportsmen, as professional knights-errant-- and we throw beer bottles at the umpire when he refuses to cheat for our side...We save the black-and-tan republics from their native [statesmen]--and flood them with "deserving" democrats of our own. We deafen the world with our whoops for liberty--and submit to laws that destroy our most sacred rights...We play policeman and Sunday-school superintendent to half of Christendom--and lynch a darky every two days in our own backyard. H.L. Mencken, 1914
Post #282,150 by boxley 4/17/07 12:32:32 PM Reply	I can throw you out of a bar for disagreeing wit my position but a public figure has no such right, free speech in the public purview has a much higher right than in private. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #282,294 by lincoln 4/18/07 3:51:04 PM Reply	only if you own the bar otherwise, you have no right to eject me from a place where you're a guest - just like me. lincoln "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem. I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a *Citizen* of the United States. [link\|mailto:golf_lover44@yahoo.com\|contact me]
Post #282,179 by Another Scott 4/17/07 3:21:14 PM Reply	Bush's political people are such cowards. If House and Senate hearings can tolerate people showing up in [link\|http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1060\|pink shirts with slogans], then Bush can accept people who aren't pre-programmed showing up at his events as well. If they get disruptive, then escort them out. If not, grin and bear it and accept - for once - the concept of [link\|http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8NOGQ4G0&show_article=1\|free speech] in America as well. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.

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