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New Pope carefully backtracks on Evolution
[link|http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/04/11/international/i144748D65.DTL|SFGate]
Benedict XVI, in his first extended reflections on evolution published as pope, says that Darwin's theory cannot be finally proven and that science has unnecessarily narrowed humanity's view of creation.

In a new book, "Creation and Evolution," published Wednesday in German, the pope praised progress gained by science, but cautioned that evolution raises philosophical questions science alone cannot answer.

"The question is not to either make a decision for a creationism that fundamentally excludes science, or for an evolutionary theory that covers over its own gaps and does not want to see the questions that reach beyond the methodological possibilities of natural science," the pope said.

He stopped short of endorsing intelligent design, but said scientific and philosophical reason must work together in a way that does not exclude faith.

Carefully picking his way back without directly contradicting statements made by previous Popes. And carefully placing his theories such that he isn't directly claiming ID, but indirectly claiming that God is behind all the important stuff. This Pope strikes me as one that will get more reactionary the longer he lives.

In the short term it may actually help the Catholic church by firing up the masses where the church is getting converts and brining some of the break away groups back into the fold. But I believe the long term impact will hasten the church's slide into history by driving people away in Europe and the US and pushing the Church towards positions that will be increasingly hard to hold.

Jay
New He can't contradict his predecessor?
Never mind the 'I don't want to accept evolution' or the unverifiability crap, does "We cannot haul 10,000 generations into the laboratory," fall under papal infallibility or something? Can bishops claim this as fact like HIV sized holes in condoms?
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New Technically he could
He can't contradict his predecessor?
Never mind the 'I don't want to accept evolution' or the unverifiability crap, does "We cannot haul 10,000 generations into the laboratory," fall under papal infallibility or something?

I believe that technically he could, as the previous pronouncement was not in the "infallible" category. But the Popes go out of their way to avoid doing so, particularly ones within living memory. Can't have the church appear to be flip-flopping after all.

Can bishops claim this as fact like HIV sized holes in condoms?

Yep. Pretty much by definition, anybody who is a Catholic bishop would consider any position of the Pope to be fact.

Jay
New "Only in matters of 'faith and morals'" re
Yep. Pretty much by definition, anybody who is a Catholic bishop would consider any position of the Pope to be fact.

..is the way I heard it.

(...back when such futile discussions seemed like a lot of fun.)

New Yup. Me too. And futile is right. :-)
New Re: "Only in matters of 'faith and morals'" re
"Only in matters of 'faith and morals'" re
..is the way I heard it.

Normal Catholic doctrine (though I'm not sure if it is an official Church position) grounds our ability to understand the universe in faith. Thus, matters of faith can be easily extended to cover anything.

But I was speaking in a more casual sense. Anybody that rises to the level of Bishop in the catholic church might have his points of disagreement with the church, but will in general follow the Catholic party line. Including the concept that the church is a single monolithic structure lead from the top. That is a basic point of the Catholic faith, if you don't agree with that it is hard to say you are a Catholic.

(...back when such futile discussions seemed like a lot of fun.)

Everything we do is ultimately pointless and futile. Better to learn to enjoy the trip then agonize over it.

Jay
New Agree re the practical effect, on the plebs
- still, a few Jesuits down in the basement would.. try to parse some rilly Outr\ufffd utterance.
After all: it is What They Do.

As to all that ..sound and fury, signifying nothing - -

Thou sayest;
we just pick up a few shiny pebbles on the beach while enjoying the Mystery - and bitching about the ones whose first thought, on spying a particularly colorful one, is - where's my .357 slingshot?

New Tough beans
Darwin expressly said creation was not a subject he was trying to explain. It's the afterwards stuff. Conflating the two seems to run afoul of that pesky thou shalt not lie thingy.
-----------------------------------------
You can fire an at will employee for good cause or no cause, but not bad cause.
New Consitituency
The statement doesn't take a fundamentalist (i.e. literal interpretation) stance, so I think that it does not represent an anti-science sentiment.

That said, I think it worthwhile to note that the third world (Africa and South America) are much more important in terms of how the theology plays out. Europe and the U.S. really don't have much sway in terms of the long range theology - i.e. there is little to no growth opportunity - at best stagnation. So talking about how the Europeans will respond is probably a non-starter - sure you may lose some, but you are also likely to more than offset that loss elsewhere. The bottom line is that conservative religions are thriving these days, while liberal religions are dwindling.
New Whatever you say Mr Nowhere Man



We posture as apostles of fair play, as good sportsmen, as professional knights-errant-- and we throw beer bottles at the umpire when he refuses to cheat for our side...We save the black-and-tan republics from their native [statesmen]--and flood them with "deserving" democrats of our own. We deafen the world with our whoops for liberty--and submit to laws that destroy our most sacred rights...We play policeman and Sunday-school superintendent to half of Christendom--and lynch a darky every two days in our own backyard.


H.L. Mencken, 1914
New A classic ID dismissal is gone
We can no longer casually dismiss Intelligent Design with
Even the Catholic Church thinks it's full of shit.

I got that quote from Ars Technica.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New Give the pope a break!
There is nothing there against ID still being crap as science -- it's the philosophical questions that (as he expicitely says) are beyond the scope of science that Herr von Benedict is addressing.

All he is saying is that there are questions raised by the existence of the universe that are beyond the scope of science to answer, yet are of serious interest to humans.

How could any pope have an opposite view to that? Surely nobody expected the neo-positivist position (among our principle weapons are nominalism, quantum semantics, formal logic, and a fanatical devotion to verifiability)?
New Sure, when he stops supporting mythology
In the book, Benedict reflected on a 1996 comment of his predecessor, John Paul II, who said that Charles Darwin's theories on evolution were sound, as long as they took into account that creation was the work of God, and that Darwin's theory of evolution was "more than a hypothesis."

"The pope (John Paul) had his reasons for saying this," Benedict said. "But it is also true that the theory of evolution is not a complete, scientifically proven theory."

The theory of evolution is a scientifically proven theory. It's as solid as any scientific theory can get without awesome powers. It's got better evidence than the big bang. Creationism and intelligent design don't even count as scientific theories, let alone plausible ones. Even suggesting that there is a decision between creationism and evolution is pushing that creationism has credibility and that means an agenda. The pope could just repeat his predecessor by stating that evolution describes how god did it and get straight on to philosophy. He's not really interested in philosphical implications, he's attacking evolution without saying so.

Worse.
He stopped short of endorsing intelligent design, but said scientific and philosophical reason must work together in a way that does not exclude faith.

Science, including the theory of evolution, attempts to describe how the natural universe functions. How does this exclude faith about the best way mankind should behave? Why does the pope spend so much time objecting to what naturally happens when he's concerned with what should be made to happen? Why just say "Who cares how the plants and animals behave? We have higher goals than gene propagation, thank you." Of course, it excludes faith about some daft, creation mythology. He's not contemplating what science cannot describe, he's reacting against something science has described.

If the pope's vision of a better world requires suspending knowledge and analysis in favour of an ancient book, I fail to see how that vision will be achieved, whatever it may be. I shall give the pope a break when his faith can accomodate new truths, not react against them.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New he is not a scirntist but a theologian
you are being illogical
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New They're not mutually exclusive
The pope, being theologian but not a scientist, can say "God set up the natural laws, let them run and we're the result. Ask the biologists and natural historians what actually happened. God's a genius or what?" He remains a theologian without encouraging wrongheaded thinking.

When asked about the evidence against the biblical creation, he can say "It's a simplistic story for the audience at the time, which we now know to be inaccurate. The story served it's purpose and is now obsolete. I would have thought that was obvious. What, you thought god should have dictated a scientically accurate explanation to Bronze Age man using modern physics and biology? No, don't answer that." Theology easily accomodating new truths.

Better yet, he can continue with "Speciation is relevant to Jesus Christ's message of love and forgiveness, how? The Catholic Church cares about people bettering themselves and society, not monkey ancestors. If a scientist shows our understanding to be incorrect, we'll just correct it. Scientists do the natural laws, we do the manmade laws." The pope, a theologian, can be concerned about theology and see unrelated fields as incidental.

For a theologian, the pope seems determined to attack an idea that has little relevance to theology.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New please explain the following, only using evolutionary dogma
[link|http://abc.net.au/science/news/stories/2007/1899517.htm|http://abc.net.au/sc.../2007/1899517.htm]
A comparison of human and chimpanzee genes has revealed chimps may have evolved more than humans in the six or seven million years since both diverged from a common ancestor.
perhaps an alien intervention? Apparently for some reason we have jumped passed them.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Dogma?
-----------------------------------------
You can fire an at will employee for good cause or no cause, but not bad cause.
New This is relevant?
The greater number of genetic changes in chimapanzees is relevant to the pope's soft attack on evolution? An oddity without a rock solid explanation shows evolution to be a worse explanation, despite over a century of gathered evidence, than an ancient myth contradicted by evidence? Even if this did show fundamental problems with evolution, the existing evidence shows the model has some worth and is still better than a story. It would still be better than the can't-prove-it's-wrong-therefore-it's-right of Intelligent Design. After all, claiming that I can fly because no one's recorded me 24/7 is rubbish.

This oddity is irrelevant anyway as the pope is refusing to state that evolution is a flawed model. He is implying it is unsupported, making it equal to other ideas. He would have a point except that it's wrong. Unless you're claiming an unknown is "not a complete, scientifically proven theory". If so, that's nonsense as science can only ever provide best-guess, working models, not absolute, unbendable certainty. Medical science hasn't the faintest idea how the Placebo Effect is possible but physiological models are retained as scientific anyway.

The sad thing is the pope could casually throw out the biblical creation as 'retired', dismiss accusations of being archaic and expound on the implications of new science and technology, such as genetic engineering. That'd shut up the critics.

The answer to your question is that it's unknown but probably the result of a low, human population at some time, which lost genes as the gene pool shrank.

That the question is asked implies a misunderstanding of mutations and evolution. Though change is driven by genetic mutation, a mutation does not always create a change that creates evolutionary superiority. Some mutations have no meaningful effect, such as eye colour. Indeed the benefits of a useful mutation is relative to an environment, relative to the existence of other genes and is, thus, random. A mutation for more sophisticated vocal chords works well with good hearing but doesn't combine with a stomach that can digest a greater variety of insects. Longer arms are good in a jungle but pointlessly costly in tundra. With random changes, comparisons are only vaguely useful.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New how droll
"some mutations have no meaningful effect, such as eye colour."bzzt wrong
Just looking for the answer "I dont know" would have sufficed, but you had to prove you dont understand the science any more than I do. Your banging on the pope because he wont give up his core beliefs in exhange for yours shows that your dogma is a ossified as his.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Did I not say "that it's unknown"?
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New The Economist weighs in.
No, not CRC or Beep. ;-)

[link|http://www.economist.com/world/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9036706|Evolution and Religion]:

[...]

Yesterday America, today the world

As these examples from around the world show, the debate over creation, evolution and religion is rapidly going global. Until recently, all the hottest public arguments had taken place in the United States, where school boards in many districts and states tried to restrict the teaching of Darwin's idea that life in its myriad forms evolved through a natural process of adaptation to changing conditions.

Darwin-bashers in America suffered a body-blow in December 2005, when a judge\ufffdstriking down the policies of a district school board in Pennsylvania\ufffddelivered a 139-page verdict that delved deeply into questions about the origin of life and tore apart the case made by the \ufffdintelligent design\ufffd camp: the idea that some features of the natural world can be explained only by the direct intervention of a ingenious creator.

Intelligent design, the judge found, was a religious theory, not a scientific one\ufffdand its teaching in schools violated the constitution, which bars the establishment of any religion. One point advanced in favour of intelligent design\ufffdthe \ufffdirreducible complexity\ufffd of some living things\ufffdwas purportedly scientific, but it was not well-founded, the judge ruled. Proponents of intelligent design were also dishonest in saying that where there were gaps in evolutionary theory, their own view was the only alternative, according to the judge.

The Seattle-based Discovery Institute, which has spearheaded the American campaign to counter-balance the teaching of evolution, artfully distanced itself from the Pennsylvania case, saying the local school board had gone too far in mixing intelligent design with a more overtly religious doctrine of \ufffdcreationism\ufffd. But the verdict made it much harder for school boards in other parts of America to mandate curbs on the teaching of evolution, as many have tried to do\ufffdto the horror of most professional scientists.

[...]

Even in the United States, defenders of evolution teaching do not see their battle as won. There was widespread dismay in their ranks in February when John McCain, a Republican presidential candidate, accepted an invitation (albeit to talk about geopolitics, not science) from the Discovery Institute. And some opponents of intelligent design are still recovering from their shock at reading in the New York Times a commentary written, partly at the prompting of the Discovery Institute, by the pope's close friend, Cardinal Christoph Sch\ufffdnborn, the Archbishop of Vienna.

In his July 2005 article the cardinal seemed to challenge what most scientists would see as axiomatic\ufffdthe idea that natural selection is an adequate explanation for the diversity and complexity of life in all its forms. Within days, the pope and his advisers found they had new interlocutors. Lawrence Krauss, an American physicist in the front-line of courtroom battles over education, fired off a letter to the Vatican urging a clarification. An agnostic Jew who insists that evolution neither disproves nor affirms any particular faith, Mr Krauss recruited as co-signatories two American biologists who were also devout Catholics. Around the same time, another Catholic voice was raised in support of evolution, that of Father George Coyne, a Jesuit astronomer who until last year was head of the Vatican observatory in Rome. Mr Krauss reckons his missive helped to nudge the Catholic authorities into clarifying their view and insisting that they did still accept natural selection as a scientific theory.

But that was not the end of the story. Catholic physicists, biologists and astronomers (like Father Coyne) insisted that there was no reason to revise their view that intelligent design is bad science. And they expressed concern (as the Christian philosopher Augustine did in the 4th century) that if the Christian church teaches things about the physical world which are manifestly false, then everything else the church teaches might be discredited too. But there is also a feeling among Pope Benedict's senior advisers that in rejecting intelligent design as it is understood in America they must not go too far in endorsing the idea that Darwinian evolution says all that needs to be, or can be, said about how the world came to be.

The net result has been the emergence of two distinct camps among the Catholic pundits who aspire to influence the pope. In one there are people such as Father Coyne, who believe (like the agnostic Mr Krauss) that physics and metaphysics can and should be separated. From his new base at a parish in North Carolina, Father Coyne insists strongly on the integrity of science\ufffd\ufffdnatural phenomena have natural causes\ufffd\ufffdand he is as firm as any secular biologist in asserting that every year the theory of evolution is consolidated with fresh evidence.

In the second camp are those, including some high up in the Vatican bureaucracy, who feel that Catholic scientists like Father Coyne have gone too far in accepting the world-view of their secular colleagues. This camp stresses that Darwinian science should not seduce people into believing that man evolved purely as the result of a process of random selection. While rejecting American-style intelligent design, some authoritative Catholic thinkers claim to see God's hand in \ufffdconvergence\ufffd: the apparent fact that, as they put it, similar processes and structures are present in organisms that have evolved separately.

[...]


(Emphasis added.)

It's a good (, though depressing IMHO,) article.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Yes A very depressing article


THE \ufffdAtlas of Creation\ufffd runs to 770 pages and is lavishly illustrated with photographs of fossils and living animals, interlaced with quotations from the Koran. Its author claims to prove not only the falsehood of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection, but the links between \ufffdDarwinism\ufffd and such diverse evils as communism, fascism and terrorism. In recent weeks the \ufffdAtlas de la Cr\ufffdation\ufffd has been arriving unsolicited and free of charge at schools and universities across French-speaking Europe. It is the latest sign of a revolt against the theories of Darwin, on which virtually the whole of modern biology is based, that is gathering momentum in many parts of the world.






To the dismay of some Americans and the delight of others, Mr Akyol was invited to give evidence (against Darwin's ideas) at hearings held by the Kansas school board in 2005 on how science should be taught. Mr Akyol, an advocate of reconciliation between Muslims and the West who is much in demand at conferences on the future of Islam, is careful to distinguish his position from that of the extravagant publishing venture in his home city. \ufffdThey make some valid criticisms of Darwinism, but I disagree with most of their other views,\ufffd insists the young author, whose other favourite cause is the compatibility between Islam and Western liberal ideals, including human rights and capitalism. But a multi-layered anti-Darwin movement has certainly brought about a climate in Turkey and other Muslim countries that makes sure challenges to evolution theory, be they sophisticated or crude, are often well received.




Thinking about the anti-Darwin movement is starting to scare me more then when I think about what would have happened if the Republicans had retained both houses of congresses in 2006.
Seamus
     Pope carefully backtracks on Evolution - (JayMehaffey) - (21)
         He can't contradict his predecessor? - (warmachine) - (5)
             Technically he could - (JayMehaffey) - (4)
                 "Only in matters of 'faith and morals'" re - (Ashton) - (3)
                     Yup. Me too. And futile is right. :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
                     Re: "Only in matters of 'faith and morals'" re - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                         Agree re the practical effect, on the plebs - (Ashton)
         Tough beans - (Silverlock)
         Consitituency - (ChrisR)
         Whatever you say Mr Nowhere Man -NT - (tuberculosis)
         A classic ID dismissal is gone - (warmachine) - (9)
             Give the pope a break! - (GBert) - (8)
                 Sure, when he stops supporting mythology - (warmachine) - (7)
                     he is not a scirntist but a theologian - (boxley) - (6)
                         They're not mutually exclusive - (warmachine) - (5)
                             please explain the following, only using evolutionary dogma - (boxley) - (4)
                                 Dogma? -NT - (Silverlock)
                                 This is relevant? - (warmachine) - (2)
                                     how droll - (boxley) - (1)
                                         Did I not say "that it's unknown"? -NT - (warmachine)
         The Economist weighs in. - (Another Scott) - (1)
             Yes A very depressing article - (Seamus)

No! Try not! Do or do not, there is no try.
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