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New Ya see, that's one reason I gave up on MP3.
It was a helluva lot of fiddling in the encoding process. It seemed so much of it was there to be twiddled because they could :-/. It reminded me too much of making expensive cassettes sound okay good in my car. It was probably the same reason the Vorbis guys added a simply 'quality' switch.

In SonicStage, I just tell it 'ATRAC3plus 64kps' and it's good.

Wade.


Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please



-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

· my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] ·

New Blimey.
Trading "thinking you have to twiddle" (you don't) for "having to run SonicStage and therefore Windows" is a helluva trade.

Greg's example is somewhat pathological - LAME has a lot of switches that you don't have to use. There's a "quality" switch, too. Also, it's not like LAME at the command line is the only way to make MP3s. I use iTunes to make mine, and that's got a "quality" switch. There's any number of graphical MP3 makers for Windows, OS X and Linux that have simple "quality" switches.

And I can listen to the resultant music files on just about anything at all - not just the small number of Sony devices that play ATRAC (sounds like 8-track! Lesson from history!).

Don't con yourself with the quality argument, either - in a proper double-blind [link|http://www.rjamorim.com/test/multiformat128/results.html|test], ATRAC came last.

Edit: Lame has a "preset" switch:
peter@odin:~$ lame --preset help\nLAME version 3.96.1 ([link|http://lame.sourceforge.net/|http://lame.sourceforge.net/])\n\n\nThe --preset switches are designed to provide the highest possible quality.\n\nThey have for the most part been subject to and tuned via rigorous double blind\nlistening tests to verify and achieve this objective.\n\nThese are continually updated to coincide with the latest developments that\noccur and as a result should provide you with nearly the best quality\ncurrently possible from LAME.\n\nTo activate these presets:\n\n   For VBR modes (generally highest quality):\n\n     "--preset medium" This preset should provide near transparency\n                             to most people on most music.\n\n     "--preset standard" This preset should generally be transparent\n                             to most people on most music and is already\n                             quite high in quality.\n\n     "--preset extreme" If you have extremely good hearing and similar\n                             equipment, this preset will generally provide\n                             slightly higher quality than the "standard"\n                             mode.\n\n   For CBR 320kbps (highest quality possible from the --preset switches):\n\n     "--preset insane"  This preset will usually be overkill for most\n                             people and most situations, but if you must\n                             have the absolute highest quality with no\n                             regard to filesize, this is the way to go.\n\n   For ABR modes (high quality per given bitrate but not as high as VBR):\n\n     "--preset <kbps>"  Using this preset will usually give you good\n                             quality at a specified bitrate. Depending on the\n                             bitrate entered, this preset will determine the\n                             optimal settings for that particular situation.\n                             While this approach works, it is not nearly as\n                             flexible as VBR, and usually will not attain the\n                             same level of quality as VBR at higher bitrates.\n\nThe following options are also available for the corresponding profiles:\n\n   <fast>        standard\n   <fast>        extreme\n                 insane\n   <cbr> (ABR Mode) - The ABR Mode is implied. To use it,\n                      simply specify a bitrate. For example:\n                      "--preset 185" activates this\n                      preset and uses 185 as an average kbps.\n\n   "fast" - Enables the new fast VBR for a particular profile. The\n            disadvantage to the speed switch is that often times the\n            bitrate will be slightly higher than with the normal mode\n            and quality may be slightly lower also.\n\n   "cbr"  - If you use the ABR mode (read above) with a significant\n            bitrate such as 80, 96, 112, 128, 160, 192, 224, 256, 320,\n            you can use the "cbr" option to force CBR mode encoding\n            instead of the standard abr mode. ABR does provide higher\n            quality but CBR may be useful in situations such as when\n            streaming an mp3 over the internet may be important.\n\n    For example:\n\n    "--preset fast standard <input file> <output file>"\n or "--preset cbr 192 <input file> <output file>"\n or "--preset 172 <input file> <output file>"\n or "--preset extreme <input file> <output file>"\n\n\nA few aliases are available for ABR mode:\nphone => 16kbps/mono        phon+/lw/mw-eu/sw => 24kbps/mono\nmw-us => 40kbps/mono        voice => 56kbps/mono\nfm/radio/tape => 112kbps    hifi => 160kbps\ncd => 192kbps               studio => 256kbps\n


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
Expand Edited by pwhysall March 7, 2007, 01:27:02 AM EST
Expand Edited by pwhysall March 7, 2007, 01:29:17 AM EST
Expand Edited by pwhysall March 7, 2007, 01:30:17 AM EST
New Yes, it was a pathological example.
That was my point.

I seem to remember that LAME's --preset switches appeared shortly after the reference Vorbis encoder acquired them. I could well be wrong. I wasn't paying that much attention to LAME because I was trialling Vorbis at the time.

That listening test is interesting, but I can't help being pendantic and wondering if it was ATRAC3 or ATRAC3plus because the latter is reputed to be at least as much of an improvement as ATRAC3 as that was over the best that original ATRAC1 reached - i.e. quite a bit better. Yes, I'm a bit of a MiniDisc fanboy. You might have noticed. Don't gag too hard. :-)

Wade.


Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please



-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

· my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] ·

New Re: Yes, it was a pathological example.
No, it wasn't your point. Your point was that you walked away from MP3 because it's too fiddly.

You said "It was a helluva lot of fiddling in the encoding process."

Not if you don't want it to be (as shown), so it's moot, so as a reason for not using MP3, it's nonsense.

Yes, I'm sure ATRAC3plus is fabulous. But it ties you to Windows, SonicStage and Sony players - and quite frankly the software's going to have to fellate me to make me put up with that sort of crap.

In the current climate, MP3 is the pragmatic choice. Plays anywhere. Quality decent. No patent encumbrance for the end-user (although codec vendors may feel differently).

Ogg Vorbis is the best-quality lossy codec, but you give away a certain amount of plays-anywhere for that. FLAC is the best option for lossless (and therefore quality).

You have an MD player and want to use it, and that's fine - I hope you enjoy it - but don't pretend that the alternatives are worse, because they're not.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
New Stop contradicting.
I've stopped responding to you, please do your best to stop responding to me.

You don't always know best.

No further comments from me in response to you on this subject.

And please everyone, there is a bunch of history on this, I feel best if he and I just basically ignore each other.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New Er... dude...
Peter was responding to Wade, not you.

You are *way* too sensitive on this subject.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Exactly.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New Yeah, there's history.
You overreact. Frequently.

That's all.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
New That is the FULL switch set I use. Some are for ID3.
IN fact: --add-id3v2 --ta "$tpe1" --tl "$talb" --tt "$tit2" --tn "$trck" --ty "$tyer" --tg "$tcon" are to set everything I need and want automagically during the encoding process.

The only reason I use the rest of the switches, is that some of my devices could not read some MP3s on the CD compilations I made, or even directly off the hard disk.

So I went reading and found that the set for compliance and limits meant a lot.

lame --nohist --vbr-new -V2 -t -b64 -B320 -F --strictly-enforce-ISO -p
--nohist == No Histogram during encoding, thank you. (way optional)

--vbr-new == Use the new VBR encoding please. The old one surprisingly is not well supported in the "MP3 Device Industry" or at all in some cases.

-V2 == Please use the third largest algo set for encoding, or "please chop very litte info from the music program, but please remove the "ringing most MP3 encoders cause above 19K during encoding"

-t == disable writing LAME Tag (or encoded by LAME v3.blah in the comment tag)

-b64 == The absolute minimum bit rate lame can use. Many MP3 devices, surprisingly cannot read/decode below this bitrate, causing dropouts or skipping to the next song. My Sony "Xplod" Car Audio deck falls into the category.

-B320 == The absolute maximum bit rate lame can use. Some early MP3 devices were designed that "320Kbps" is all they will ever need... seems they were wrong. I have another Sandisk thumb drive that works as an MP3 player, storage and dictation recorder. Very early on in the MP3 device arena

-F == strictly enforce the -b option, for use with players that do not support low bitrate mp3

--strictly-enforce-ISO == comply as much as possible to ISO MPEG spec

-p == error protection. adds 16 bit checksum to every frame (the checksum is computed correctly). My Sony "Xplod" and my wife's mobile Sony CD/MP3 player both can do error correction on the fly.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New And, speaking from experience, GF's re-encodes sound great.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
     After making 22 GB of MP3s, should I have used FLAC instead? - (Another Scott) - (16)
         You probably can't hear the difference. - (pwhysall)
         Need the bit-rate to offer opinions. - (static) - (1)
             CDex "preset standard" VBR2 is 128 - 320 kbps - (Another Scott)
         I use this set of switches for "lame" - (folkert) - (10)
             Ya see, that's one reason I gave up on MP3. - (static) - (9)
                 Blimey. - (pwhysall) - (6)
                     Yes, it was a pathological example. - (static) - (1)
                         Re: Yes, it was a pathological example. - (pwhysall)
                     Stop contradicting. - (folkert) - (3)
                         Er... dude... - (admin) - (1)
                             Exactly. -NT - (folkert)
                         Yeah, there's history. - (pwhysall)
                 That is the FULL switch set I use. Some are for ID3. - (folkert) - (1)
                     And, speaking from experience, GF's re-encodes sound great. -NT - (bepatient)
         No. - (bepatient)
         FLAC not needed - (andread)

Fun is fun to have.
54 ms